SCH needs some nerfs

[Dualgunner]

Aight I'll bite, explain to me why would anyone take a job that takes away raid dps in a parse run or speed run.

I think the main issue is you're conflating a parse run and a speed run. You use both terms, but you seem to use them synonymously. A parse run is meant to feed a single individual's damage to get their damage up as high as it can go, oftentimes beyond what that job's actual limits are because of just how hard they've been fed. With this in mind, you can take any job in for a parse run, within the constraint that the party has to synergize well enough to be able to feed (so, more often than not parse running a non-meta job will mean you're going 7/8 speedkill meta). Even when doing parse runs with the full speedkill meta, you're going to prioritize one member over others more often than not because feeding is important for parse runs.

So let's answer this question: why would you take a non-meta job into a parse run? Admittedly, the biggest reason I can think of, and what my static's White Mage did, was find a group outside of our static that already got their clears for the week as well, and take turns doing parse runs where they optimized the strategy and synergy around making sure he got the highest parse he could.

All this to say...this weird narrative that White Mages cannot optimize is definitely weird. You might as well say that SAM and BLM were fine, their damage was high enough it's just you couldn't optimize with them like you could other DPS and all the good DPS went meta anyway so the results are skewed.

inb4 "I know that I'm orange in every fight and you don't even play healer"

You asked "Why would anyone take a job that takes away raid dps in a parse run or speed run?" To answer that, I needed to define my terms clearly. Speedkills will naturally get high number outputs because the boss is dying at ludicrous speed; therefore, you would of course go full speedkill meta to try and achieve speedkills because the meta offers the greatest raid DPS, and thus, the fastest kill. Parse runs are about feeding, not speed, although speed can and does matter, it's not the priority.

I guess it could be crystallized as speedkills care about total rDPS, while parse runs care only about the player's individual pDPS.

[CreinCrein]

I differ parse runs from feed runs. Parse runs are about mutual synergy leading to the highest damage output for each player. Speed runs are about pushing for the fastest kill time. They're similar, but differ as speed runs utilize different strategies that lead to lowered pdps but higher rdps in some cases, such as shield cheesing O11S's red fists and constant LB cheesing. Feed runs are an entirely different subject. Sorry for the misunderstanding

[CreinCrein]

I have no bias against SCH in general just the ones who can't see that their class is overtaking the other healers by a ridiculous amount.

If you can't find the parse runs for WHM on fflogs maybe you should take a class or something I dunno, it isn't hard to do. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble though. It seems like an easy enough thing to me :shrug:

Stay in the meta. That's cool. You can also keep proving me right with this extreme defensiveness. As I said neither of us can link logs so this isn't something that can be settled here. If you care so much about making your point my discord is in my signature, if not stop making claims you can't provide evidence for.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/vwaDr...pe=damage-done vs https://www.fflogs.com/reports/hBW87...pe=damage-done

Top sch vs whm parse. Skipped the entire final add phase, had a smn for contagion, lower kill time = higher dps, skipped an entire movement and healing phase. Hardly optimal setting for the whm. I can do through the entire top ten to top 50s in the list and see the same trends.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/CVjdk...pe=damage-done vs https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Wfjam...pe=damage-done

4 vs 4, skipped the entirety of the final add phase. Contagion vs no contagion yet again.

Feel free to report me btw

[Erakir]

Why are we so ultra focused on the tip top here, with this narrative of WHMs just not being in optimized groups at all?

Guys, forget the 99% for a moment. There would have to be SO MANY people who jumped from WHM to AST to push the entire chart for WHMs lower across the board. A ridiculous number. Hell, if anything all these amazing ASTs and SCHs at the top of the charts would in theory push the bottom ASTs/SCHs further down, as there's more high end competition.

And yet, the 25th percentile numbers have WHM in dead last for every fight going by that chart earlier. Except on o12 where the 25th percentile WHMs squeak by the 25th percentile ASTs. The gaps do close a bit on the low end of AST, where you'd probably see less ideal cards and more AST/WHM combos without chain strat (actually scratch that, we know how few WHM/ASTs are clearing O12 right now). Of course, scholars are still sitting high and pretty even on the bottom in these non-meta groups.

Quite frankly the number of raiders seriously going out there for parse/speedkills - and going out of their way to push meta for it instead of just doing the best they can with their static - is going to be kinda low relative to the total number of people raiding. Much lower than would be needed for this whole trend across the board. It's always been the case in every MMO I play. This shows that optimizing WHM for damage at all - no matter where you are in the charts or what sort of comp you're running - is more difficult / requires more catering to than other healer jobs.

Which is a problem. This is PART of the reason MCHs are having so many issues right now as well. Even under the assumption that a class can perform *on par* with personal numbers (which still leaves it behind since it offers no real raid benefit), you've got something that requires far more effort than the other options to attain the same results.

Or you can just say WHMs are worse players than ASTs and SCHs by default and....yeah have fun with that argument.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, looking at the 99% has its merits, but the balance across the entire spread of the playerbase matters first. When an issue shows up there consistently, it's far more important. Likewise if anyone was getting kicked from 24 mans or dungeons routinely for their job, that'd be an extremely bigger concern than anything in savage.

Double edit: And also while I'm here - not that anyone is doing this yet, but...don't try to ignore people under 50% as "bad players that shouldn't be thought about when it comes to balance." They totally should. This is still savage, and though the mechanics may be easy for a lot of people here, this is high end content in XIV and if you're clearing it you are not a bad player as far as the developers will see it. You're ahead of the curve.

[Lastelli]

I was being sarcastic and satirical. The number of WHMs who have logs recorded on FFLogs is a fair margin higher (usually at least 10K+ recorded) than those aforementioned job but WHM's position in the healer role is in a much more precarious than most of those jobs except for potentially MCH (correct me if I'm wrong though, I just hear a lot of bad things about MCH down the grapevine but I've never actually looked in great detail personally)

MCH dps is very solid, especially with a DRG and a NIN in the party. MCH issues have more to do with its gameplay design and the fact that it's competing for the physical ranged spot with BRD, and BRD is simply a better choice for several reasons. So in the current situation, either MCH is meta alongside BRD, or it's an inferior choice than BRD, with a much more punishing gameplay, more reliant on party composition and more frustrating to play due to how disruptive high latency is to the job. But if we're talking about efficiency, a WHM is much more detrimental to a party than a MCH.

[Connor]

Isn’t the low healing requirements of the overall game a barrier to balancing healers properly? When healers are balanced around dealing damage most of the time, it makes sense that one that literally was a DPS would have the easiest time of it.

On the other hand, the standard ‘pure healer’ type jobs (White Mage) don’t seem to do so well. They can do high DPS, but I don’t think that’s the idea behind a White Mage lol, hence why it tends to feel less impactful than Scholar / Astrologian who are supposed to be more support oriented.

You can argue that this doesn’t apply to Astrologian since it’s meant to be a low DPS heal/buff oriented support type healer, but I think the changes to stuff like lightspeed / Malefic III make it DPS enough to be desirable.

I think the devs see healers as having this weird balance because White Mage is the ‘pure healer’ whilst Scholar and Astrologian are the ‘support healers’. Of course this isn’t true, but I genuinely don’t think they take a healer’s damage dealing capabilities into account when considering how ‘balanced’ they are

[KDSilver]

I think the devs see healers as having this weird balance because White Mage is the ‘pure healer’ whilst Scholar and Astrologian are the ‘support healers’.

WHM could still be that "pure healer" with a very high personnal DPS (by a very significant margin) They have to rework some of its hGCD spell as well in that case, such as plenary for example, which duration is too short to have the best benefit from it except on really rare raid situation, asyulum and the fact that people has to be in it to get to HoT while Ast can directly put it on the party... maybe lowering some recast time or increase some potencies to match with the other healer gGCD potencies (which is a reason they are so powerful).

They could also adress the clipping WHM has with the same adjusment they made to ast with Stone being at 1.5s which could be a good start and reduce medica II cast time as well (this adjusment on AST looked to be adressed to nocturnal first, because of succor being at 2.5, but since any change is being made on ast whitout considering the sect, it was a small buff to diurnal as well, leaving medica II at 3s)

There are many things like this they slowly adjusted to scholar and ast (QoL) but forgot to do to WHM as well.

[Brightamethyst]

WHM could still be that "pure healer" with a very high personnal DPS (by a very significant margin)

That wouldn't really work either. There's a big difference between raiding and the entire rest of the game. If you give WHM enough personal DPS to compete with SCH/AST support in a savage raid setting it would be completely OP in solo and light party settings, which what the vast majority of players spend most of their time doing.

[Lastelli]

If you give WHM enough personal DPS to compete with SCH/AST support in a savage raid setting it would be completely OP in solo and light party settings

And why should people care about what happens in solo and 4-man content that can be easily cleared by smashing your head on the keyboard?

In case someone didn't notice, solo and 4-man content is already ridiculously unbalanced. Think about SMN/BLM aoe dps in dungeons or tanks' and healers' semi-immortality in solo content. Giving WHM more single target damage would hardly make things much worse.

[KDSilver]

That wouldn't really work either. There's a big difference between raiding and the entire rest of the game. If you give WHM enough personal DPS to compete with SCH/AST support in a savage raid setting it would be completely OP in solo and light party settings, which what the vast majority of players spend most of their time doing.

It really doesn't matter what the class can do solo and in dungeons honestly...
And increasing single target output will not make it OP either.
Where are you coming from