SCH needs some nerfs

[KDSilver]

I have another free minute so I think I'd like to address this. .

I said I was okay with a nerf, but not an absurd nerf because it is asked, but something consistant, so, as long as they don't have a general idea of how to properly balance classes, I prefer scholar to stay as is and adjust it later. (to have strong bases from where to start their adjustment)
For example, currently, even with potencies fixes, it won't make Noct.Ast suddently better.

I'm talking about the skill ceiling.
Sch need far more knowledge and micro managment than the other 2 to reach its maximum potential, which are good use of both fairy CD and AF to maximize miasma II weaving, energy drain and Broil spam.
That's not something I put on his head because I want to.

Take the miasma II case for example. You said they can endlessly do that to weave. It's not if you don't use energy drain a lot and plan your AF heals accordingly with your co-healer and have mana support from refresh.

However, Miasma II was not meant to be used in ST to begin with, that is true. People where asking for an aoe filler because of how terrible it was to spam Broil after Bane/dots on a huge pack.
But they felt a bit lazy about that they just took an old existing skill and ajusted potencies.
I'm talking about it because that's one of the reason its DPS jumped higher, but even so, you still can't do it all day without a bit of planning and support (except if you have a ton of piety maybe)

[Mansion]

I think it's more as deep as FFXIV got tangled in its healing mechanics. That started with "main heal" and "off heal" let's say. That Mitigation part of healing is well handled, and so it did not need to change so much with time, so the new abilities for SCH could focus on DPS, raid utility and a bit of quality of life. That's why it works so well, it fits the deal perfectly.
The problem is that Noct AST does not do as much is terms of mitigation, but still helps with buff. If only we could have that as main heal... wait, we can !

For me AST and SCH are very well balanced now, they are built on the concept that healers do more than healing, and they are designed that way.
WHM still falls behind for the numerous reasons we already know. It would be a shame to ruin one or two well designed classes because the third one has been left behind, as of course it's easier to nerf than buff and balance...

[MoroMurasaki]

I said I was okay with a nerf, but not an absurd nerf because it is asked, but something consistant, so, as long as they don't have a general idea of how to properly balance classes, I prefer scholar to stay as is and adjust it later. (to have strong bases from where to start their adjustment)
For example, currently, even with potencies fixes, it won't make Noct.Ast suddently better.

I'm talking about the skill ceiling.
Sch need far more knowledge and micro managment than the other 2 to reach its maximum potential, which are good use of both fairy CD and AF to maximize miasma II weaving, energy drain and Broil spam.
That's not something I put on his head because I want to.

Take the miasma II case for example. You said they can endlessly do that to weave. It's not if you don't use energy drain a lot and plan your AF heals accordingly with your co-healer and have mana support from refresh.

However, Miasma II was not meant to be used in ST to begin with, that is true. People where asking for an aoe filler because of how terrible it was to spam Broil after Bane/dots on a huge pack.
But they felt a bit lazy about that they just took an old existing skill and ajusted potencies.
I'm talking about it because that's one of the reason its DPS jumped higher, but even so, you still can't do it all day without a bit of planning and support (except if you have a ton of piety maybe)

This is your opinion on the SCH ceiling. Opinions are like butts, everyone has one. Also unless they stole Ruin II when I wasn't looking SCH doesn't rely solely on Miasma II for its infinite weaving.

I get that you don't want them to nerf SCH but so far you have yet to provide any compelling reasons why. It seems like you're attempting to downplay it's strengths but logs speak for themselves.

SCH is overrepresented and also the king of healer dps even before you factor in Chain rDPS. A disparity this large is indicative of an imbalance, like when AST was underrepresented compared to both original healers before the Balance buff or (for a more recent example) before Malefic cast time reductions and the Lightspped buff.

If you can't be bothered to look at numbers then this isn't a conversation worth having.

For me AST and SCH are very well balanced now, they are built on the concept that healers do more than healing, and they are designed that way.
WHM still falls behind for the numerous reasons we already know. It would be a shame to ruin one or two well designed classes because the third one has been left behind, as of course it's easier to nerf than buff and balance...

This is flawed logic that operates on the premise that AST/SCH is the preferred comp because they are equally good. You can squash this by just looking at the rates at which groups run SCH/WHM versus WHM/AST. If a group has a WHM they basically aren't looking at AST because the question isn't "What healers are we taking?" but rather "Who is healing with the SCH?"

I agree AST is well balanced right now and that WHM is lagging behind but to ignore the gap between AST and SCH is like overlooking the grand canyon to focus on a ditch.

[CreinCrein]

SCH is overrepresented and also the king of healer dps even before you factor in Chain rDPS. A disparity this large is indicative of an imbalance, like when AST was underrepresented compared to both original healers before the Balance buff or (for a more recent example) before Malefic cast time reductions and the Lightspped buff.

If you can't be bothered to look at numbers then this isn't a conversation worth having.



This is flawed logic that operates on the premise that AST/SCH is the preferred comp because they are equally good. You can squash this by just looking at the rates at which groups run SCH/WHM versus WHM/AST. If a group has a WHM they basically aren't looking at AST because the question isn't "What healers are we taking?" but rather "Who is healing with the SCH?"

I agree AST is well balanced right now and that WHM is lagging behind but to ignore the gap between AST and SCH is like overlooking the grand canyon to focus on a ditch.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ers&dataset=99

Diurnal Astrologian is top in terms of personal dps while also almost equal if not more rdps than a scholar; hardly balanced. Scholar is also hardly balanced in comparison to whm; is this their fault? Probably not. The game is designed around minimizing GCDs healing done by optimizing your usage of resourceless OGCDs. WHM has extremely weak resourceless healing OGCDs compared to the other healers, and are over reliant on their GCDs to cover damage. They also have the problem of having a useless job mechanic (lilies), while also at the same time are falling behind on damage because of the mobility given to astro. It also doesn't help that encounter designs are also practically catered to AST/SCH cooldowns this tier. The core identity of whm ("big heals") also doesn't work with how the metagame is played.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

We tend to forget here on the boards where we like to have higher level discussions about endgame events, but these sorts of issues don't affect most players. The vast majority of players spend the vast majority of their time not raiding. WHM my be behind in the cutting edge progression meta, but it's perfectly fine in the rest of the game (relatively, lilies still suck no matter what.)

That said, I'd rather see WHM brought up than SCH and AST brought down. WHM has always been the "safe but boring" healer, but as a concept that doesn't play well in the current game design. They need a support gimmick (cards, faeries) rather just a "more heals" gimmick (lilies.) Maybe in 5.0 rework lilies into a party buff mechanic or something.

Quite frankly, healers are overpowered in this game. Bringing WHM is only make content even easier because of how fights are designed. The issue is the developers have a vision for how they intend healers to function which differs substantially from the actual metagame. We simply don't play the way they want hence why despite the removal of Cleric, Yoshida still prattled, telling players to stop expecting healer DPS. Unfortunately, White Mage is trapped in the tug-of-war between concept and execution. How does this effect casual players? Well, casual White Mages ever want to venture into harder content, they'll be bombarded by a meta scene that simply doesn't want them. It's highly discouraging to see static recruitment omitting your preferred job and high end players pointing out the endless flaws it has. Yes, yes, "everything is viable!" People don't care. And while there will always be a meta, each job needs to be competitive. That isn't the case for a lot of them.

Balancing around casual players is why the devs continue to struggle. The only thing that matters for job adjustment is the high end scene because these are the players taking the jobs to their limits. A perfect example of this flawed approach is Astro. I suspect the devs never realized just how much simply giving Malefic III an instant cast would impact their DPS. Why? Casual players are far more likely to not keep their GCD rolling or consistently double weave. It wasn't a problem because they weren't looking at the proper content to see it.

[Brightamethyst]

Quite frankly, healers are overpowered in this game.

Agreed, but that's a failure of game design, not class design. Nerfing SCH and AST wouldn't make WHM better, it would just make everyone equally bad.

[MoroMurasaki]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ers&dataset=99

Diurnal Astrologian is top in terms of personal dps while also almost equal if not more rdps than a scholar; hardly balanced. Scholar is also hardly balanced in comparison to whm; is this their fault? Probably not. The game is designed around minimizing GCDs healing done by optimizing your usage of resourceless OGCDs. WHM has extremely weak resourceless healing OGCDs compared to the other healers, and are over reliant on their GCDs to cover damage. They also have the problem of having a useless job mechanic (lilies), while also at the same time are falling behind on damage because of the mobility given to astro. It also doesn't help that encounter designs are also practically catered to AST/SCH cooldowns this tier. The core identity of whm ("big heals") also doesn't work with how the metagame is played.

In that link there are 42k SCH uploads versus the 27k WHM ones and 28k AST ones. For comparison there are slightly more than 13k uploads without a SCH present. If we assume more or less no doubles which I think is fair that means there is a SCH present in roughly 77% of uploaded logs.

I feel like this speaks for it's self. It is completely broken.

[Brightamethyst]

If we assume more or less no doubles which I think is fair that means there is a SCH present in roughly 77% of uploaded logs.

I feel like this speaks for it's self. It is completely broken.

There are only three healers. Even if there was perfect balance you'd expect SCHs to be in ~66% of groups (assuming no doubling up.) SCH numbers are higher, but not THAT much higher. It's definitely strong, but "completely broken" seems like overkill.

[CreinCrein]

SCH player numbers are high because the one class that can compete against its comp-slot is noct astro, which is complete garbage in comparison; a result of having the class be balanced around two stances and assume two identities (hopefully will be resolved when they add another healer). Player numbers are also not indicative of class performance; DRK actually outperforms pld right now but still has 1/10 of the tank playerbase running on it, means jack.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

SCH present in roughly 77% of uploaded logs.

I do wonder what they're going to do about this. Leaving a job completely busted for an entire expansion then nerfing it at the start of the next doesn't work. The outcry is so huge they end up buffing it right back up.

I'm a bit tired of this lopsided healer balance that's for sure...