SCH needs some nerfs

[MoroMurasaki]

I said I was okay with a nerf, but not an absurd nerf because it is asked, but something consistant, so, as long as they don't have a general idea of how to properly balance classes, I prefer scholar to stay as is and adjust it later. (to have strong bases from where to start their adjustment)
For example, currently, even with potencies fixes, it won't make Noct.Ast suddently better.

I'm talking about the skill ceiling.
Sch need far more knowledge and micro managment than the other 2 to reach its maximum potential, which are good use of both fairy CD and AF to maximize miasma II weaving, energy drain and Broil spam.
That's not something I put on his head because I want to.

Take the miasma II case for example. You said they can endlessly do that to weave. It's not if you don't use energy drain a lot and plan your AF heals accordingly with your co-healer and have mana support from refresh.

However, Miasma II was not meant to be used in ST to begin with, that is true. People where asking for an aoe filler because of how terrible it was to spam Broil after Bane/dots on a huge pack.
But they felt a bit lazy about that they just took an old existing skill and ajusted potencies.
I'm talking about it because that's one of the reason its DPS jumped higher, but even so, you still can't do it all day without a bit of planning and support (except if you have a ton of piety maybe)

This is your opinion on the SCH ceiling. Opinions are like butts, everyone has one. Also unless they stole Ruin II when I wasn't looking SCH doesn't rely solely on Miasma II for its infinite weaving.

I get that you don't want them to nerf SCH but so far you have yet to provide any compelling reasons why. It seems like you're attempting to downplay it's strengths but logs speak for themselves.

SCH is overrepresented and also the king of healer dps even before you factor in Chain rDPS. A disparity this large is indicative of an imbalance, like when AST was underrepresented compared to both original healers before the Balance buff or (for a more recent example) before Malefic cast time reductions and the Lightspped buff.

If you can't be bothered to look at numbers then this isn't a conversation worth having.

For me AST and SCH are very well balanced now, they are built on the concept that healers do more than healing, and they are designed that way.
WHM still falls behind for the numerous reasons we already know. It would be a shame to ruin one or two well designed classes because the third one has been left behind, as of course it's easier to nerf than buff and balance...

This is flawed logic that operates on the premise that AST/SCH is the preferred comp because they are equally good. You can squash this by just looking at the rates at which groups run SCH/WHM versus WHM/AST. If a group has a WHM they basically aren't looking at AST because the question isn't "What healers are we taking?" but rather "Who is healing with the SCH?"

I agree AST is well balanced right now and that WHM is lagging behind but to ignore the gap between AST and SCH is like overlooking the grand canyon to focus on a ditch.

[CreinCrein]

SCH is overrepresented and also the king of healer dps even before you factor in Chain rDPS. A disparity this large is indicative of an imbalance, like when AST was underrepresented compared to both original healers before the Balance buff or (for a more recent example) before Malefic cast time reductions and the Lightspped buff.

If you can't be bothered to look at numbers then this isn't a conversation worth having.



This is flawed logic that operates on the premise that AST/SCH is the preferred comp because they are equally good. You can squash this by just looking at the rates at which groups run SCH/WHM versus WHM/AST. If a group has a WHM they basically aren't looking at AST because the question isn't "What healers are we taking?" but rather "Who is healing with the SCH?"

I agree AST is well balanced right now and that WHM is lagging behind but to ignore the gap between AST and SCH is like overlooking the grand canyon to focus on a ditch.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ers&dataset=99

Diurnal Astrologian is top in terms of personal dps while also almost equal if not more rdps than a scholar; hardly balanced. Scholar is also hardly balanced in comparison to whm; is this their fault? Probably not. The game is designed around minimizing GCDs healing done by optimizing your usage of resourceless OGCDs. WHM has extremely weak resourceless healing OGCDs compared to the other healers, and are over reliant on their GCDs to cover damage. They also have the problem of having a useless job mechanic (lilies), while also at the same time are falling behind on damage because of the mobility given to astro. It also doesn't help that encounter designs are also practically catered to AST/SCH cooldowns this tier. The core identity of whm ("big heals") also doesn't work with how the metagame is played.

[MoroMurasaki]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ers&dataset=99

Diurnal Astrologian is top in terms of personal dps while also almost equal if not more rdps than a scholar; hardly balanced. Scholar is also hardly balanced in comparison to whm; is this their fault? Probably not. The game is designed around minimizing GCDs healing done by optimizing your usage of resourceless OGCDs. WHM has extremely weak resourceless healing OGCDs compared to the other healers, and are over reliant on their GCDs to cover damage. They also have the problem of having a useless job mechanic (lilies), while also at the same time are falling behind on damage because of the mobility given to astro. It also doesn't help that encounter designs are also practically catered to AST/SCH cooldowns this tier. The core identity of whm ("big heals") also doesn't work with how the metagame is played.

In that link there are 42k SCH uploads versus the 27k WHM ones and 28k AST ones. For comparison there are slightly more than 13k uploads without a SCH present. If we assume more or less no doubles which I think is fair that means there is a SCH present in roughly 77% of uploaded logs.

I feel like this speaks for it's self. It is completely broken.

[Brightamethyst]

If we assume more or less no doubles which I think is fair that means there is a SCH present in roughly 77% of uploaded logs.

I feel like this speaks for it's self. It is completely broken.

There are only three healers. Even if there was perfect balance you'd expect SCHs to be in ~66% of groups (assuming no doubling up.) SCH numbers are higher, but not THAT much higher. It's definitely strong, but "completely broken" seems like overkill.

[KDSilver]

I get that you don't want them to nerf SCH.

I said it twice that was okay with a nerf.
I know Scholar is strong and OP.
I don't want asburd nerf, then absurd buff like they did in SB.
That's why I said that, if they want to nerf it without really thinking what they're doing, I prefer him to stay like this and see what's their plan for other healers, then potentially nerf it after.
I don't know how I should write it to get understood.

Like when they buffed Indom... I didn't understood the thing cause Indom was already strong.
Same for the Succor buffed. While it needeed some help, I was not thinking about a 150% shield either.
I was as surprised as many to see those buff that wasn't entirely needeed cause the only "prob" was that his shield had insane mana cost with the old AF trait (20% to get -10s).
With the 45s AF it is okay, but they did all those adjustement in one time.

And what made SCH dps higher was precisely Miasma II weaving because of its pps higher than Broil + hGCD, not Ruin II.

As for the skill ceiling, this isn't entirely "my" opinion but something commonly shared among the comminity.
Sch is easy to play okay, a lot harder to master at his best.

[MoroMurasaki]

I said it twice that was okay with a nerf.
I know Scholar is strong and OP.
I don't want asburd nerf, then absurd buff like they did in SB.
That's why I said that, if they want to nerf it without really thinking what they're doing, I prefer him to stay like this and see what's their plan for other healers, then potentially nerf it after.
I don't know how I should write it to get understood.

Like when they buffed Indom... I didn't understood the thing cause Indom was already strong.
Same for the Succor buffed. While it needeed some help, I was not thinking about a 150% shield either.
I was as surprised as many to see those buff that wasn't entirely needeed cause the only "prob" was that his shield had insane mana cost with the old AF trait (20% to get -10s).
With the 45s AF it is okay, but they did all those adjustement in one time.

And what made SCH dps higher was precisely Miasma II weaving because of its pps higher than Broil + hGCD, not Ruin II.

As for the skill ceiling, this isn't entirely "my" opinion but something commonly shared among the comminity.
Sch is easy to play okay, a lot harder to master at his best.

So to be clear I said SCH needs some nerfs and you argued against that but now you're only saying you don't want an absurd nerf.

Please show me where I have suggested absurd nerfs. I'll wait.

Oh look! I didn't! So your protest is essentially pointless.

I'm not saying I want SCH 6 feet under. Please stop crying like I'm suggesting it should be made unplayable. I'm saying it is currently too strong and is grossly overrepresented in current Savage content.

If any of you SCH white knights want to try to argue against that I will happily laugh you out of the thread. As I stated before 77% of parses in Alphascape have a SCH present.

[technole]

If any of you SCH white knights want to try to argue against that I will happily laugh you out of the thread. As I stated before 77% of parses in Alphascape have a SCH present.

So? Just as much as Paladin and Bard are usually represented in most savage groups, party utility rules all. Astro and Scholar have that, your Whine Mage has none. You should be asking for buffs, not tearing down the jobs that actually are great.

Second, Scholar already got a nerf last tier.

Whining about log representation is laughable at-best, if anything, all three healers have never been better balanced in terms of healing throughput. Just one has some absurd job meter mechanic.

[KDSilver]

So to be clear I said SCH needs some nerfs and you argued against that but now you're only saying you don't want an absurd nerf.

Please show me where I have suggested absurd nerfs. I'll wait.

Oh look! I didn't! So your protest is essentially pointless. [/b]

No... you misunderstood my point.
When I talked about "absurd" nerf, I never mentionned that it's what you want.
It's what I'm afraid dev team might do, because, like I said several times, I feel like they don't know how to nerf properly.

I'm not putting words on your statment you never said.

So please, no more passive agressive tone, I'm not fightning.
And if you can't understand me this time, I'll just give up explaining myself.