SCH needs some nerfs

[Ghishlain]

I'm not entirely sure what to say to this, nor why I was quoted. You didn't disagree with me, just broke down my concise point.

But one thing you have to take into account, is that the logic you stated can be applied at almost any time during the games duration. As you stated battles have a flow. The thing is that flow isn't constant and hiccups happen. From a healer perspective SCH, is good when things are planned, or right place right time. Have an "Oh Shite" moment, and a SCH might not be too great. It comes down to burst vs extended again, which SCH excels at, through no fault of their own, it's just the nature of the encounters.

I'm just explaining why I think SCH is too strong compared to the other two healers and also why at this juncture it may be better to knock SCH down a few pegs versus knocking the other two healers up a few pegs, since you were asking for asking for reasons why some players may feel the job is OP.

I also disagree with your premise that:

1. SCH shouldn't be healing in a raid setting - it has the best tools to deal with healing while not spending the precious commodity known as GCDs
2. Deployment Tactics needs fixing - it's one of the best mitigation tool in the game and enables so much LB cheese in the process; if anything I'd say it needs a nerf

I guess we'll see what happens in 5.0 since I don't expect any serious reworks of any kits until then, but I am hoping SCH can be brought a little bit more inline with the others.

[Jinzhu]

Let's take the O11S fight timeline I posted earlier and just focus on the raid busters:

SCH can

• [00:07] Indom the Atomic Ray
• [00:26] Fey Covenant and Whispering Dawn the Flamethrower
• [03:02] Indom the Delta Attack
• [03:36] Adlo and Deployment Tactics the Flamethower (GCD)
• [03:43] Indom the Ballistic Impact
• [04:16] Indom the Atomic Ray
• [04:30] Succor the Peripheral Synthesis (GCD)
• [04:48] Indom the Electric Slide
• [04:59] Whispering Dawn the Peripheral Synthesis
• [05:48] Sacred Soil, Fey Covenant, and Indom the Flamethrower
• [06:28] Whispering Dawn the Ballistics Damage
• [06:40] Adlo and Deployment Tactics the double Wave Cannon Kyrios (GCD)
• [06:50] Indom the Long Needle Kyrios
• [07:10] Succor the Atomic Ray (GCD)
• [07:58] Indom the Atomic Ray
• [08:07] Succor, Fey Covenant, and Whispering Dawn the Flamethrower
• [08:59] Indom the Engage Ballistics System
• [09:11] Adlo and Deployment Tactics the Double Wave Cannon Kyrios (GCD)
• [09:22] Whispering Dawn the Long Needle Kyrios
• [10:04] Indom the Charybdis
• [10:29] Whispering Dawn, Fey Covenant, Sacred Soil, Indom all the Atomic Rays

===

TLDR: And combination of SCH's single target healing kit, raid healing kit, DPS buffing kit, and how well the SCH's kit design compliments the current raid designs allows SCH to shine as a healer at a much higher peak versus the other two healers.

It's funny that you think SCHs kit caters to the raid tier when it really doesn't and ASTs kit actually does.

> [00:07] Indom the Atomic Ray. No point in doing that when Earthly Star covers it.
> [00:26] Fey Covenant and Whispering Dawn the Flamethrower. No point in running Selene when AST can just collective after Flamethrower and be smooth sailing.
> [03:02] Indom the Delta Attack. Why would you waste Indom on Delta Attack when you can just GCD heal since the boss isn't on the field to attack.
> [03:36] Adlo and Deployment Tactics the Flamethower (GCD). No point in using Indom when you can use succor before the boss is targetable and Earthly Star covers the damage.
> [03:43] Indom the Ballistic Impact. No point in using Indom when Earthly Star covers the damage.
> [04:16] Indom the Atomic Ray. No point in using Indom when Collective covers the damage.
> [04:30] Succor the Peripheral Synthesis (GCD). Don't see how this made the list of "SCHs kit works so well for this fight" when it's just preshielding.
> [04:48] Indom the Electric Slide. No need to indom when Earthly Star covers the damage.
> [04:59] Whispering Dawn the Peripheral Synthesis. This is okay.
> [05:48] Sacred Soil, Fey Covenant, and Indom the Flamethrower. Super overmitigated lol. Why waste Soil when at most you're going to drop down to is 20k. No need to soil or Indom because Earthly Star will cover the damage.
> [06:28] Whispering Dawn the Ballistics Damage. No ballistic missles here, you're thinking of the wrong flamethrower.
> [06:40] Adlo and Deployment Tactics the double Wave Cannon Kyrios (GCD). Not sure why you would waste Deploy here when Collective and Indom can solo this part.
> [06:50] Indom the Long Needle Kyrios. No need if you have collective.
> [07:10] Succor the Atomic Ray (GCD). Again not needed because Earthly Star covers the damage.
You missed the red fists. If anything you'd Deploy for the red fists and build a whole LB3 back from it.
> [07:58] Indom the Atomic Ray. No need to Indom because of Earthly Star.
> [08:07] Succor, Fey Covenant, and Whispering Dawn the Flamethrower. This is okay.
> [08:59] Indom the Engage Ballistics System. No need to when Earthly Star + Collective Cover the damage.
Literally afk all of Pantokrator 2 because AST is busted.

Now let's see whats more busted because it's definitely AST rather than SCH. This is true for each fights this raid tier and not just O11 either. ASTs kit compliments the current raid tier (and previous raid tiers but more so this raid tier cause of the new collective change) and allows them to shine as a healer at a much higher peak versus the other two.

[AbelArchaniEA]

Remove thread for lack of understanding of their own job

[Sylvain]

The only thing that needs to be nerfed (or streamed down) on SCH is Deployement on Adlo.
The problem with that is that it's either "fine" when it's not a crit. (altough you can abuse buff from Largesse, Convalescence and Defiance) or it's simply OP when it's a crit.
The SCH is strong enough even without that and I personally find deployement tactic to be a very boring and clunky spell (boring =/= strong).
I mean, there's only one thing you can deploy and since most of the time we fish for a crit they might as well make (Your next Adloquium will crit and be applied to every player around your target). Problem is, on top of being too strong, (adlo crit spread) it would then become reliable (because that's litterally the only weakness this thing has)

Personally I would really like a rework of Deployement Tactic for 5.0. (or its entire removal)
I'd preffer it to be less potent but more reliable so you can properly make up your strategy around it. And even if we can already do that to some extent (especially during phase transition), spamming Adlo until it crit is just play stupid.

I'm not even talking about how you can abuse lb generation

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Your next Adloquium will crit and be applied to every player around your target)

This would be the most broken thing since 20% balance. As much as a guaranteed crit ability for SCH would be, it should absolutely not happen unless crit adlo gets nerfed.

[Sylvain]

This would be the most broken thing since 20% balance. As much as a guaranteed crit ability for SCH would be, it should absolutely not happen unless crit adlo gets nerfed.

I did say it would be broken. (I mean, it already is broken, it's brokennness is just dampened by the rng nature of crit)

I just pointed that the only flaw of Deployement is the randomness of the Adlo crit. (Which makes it annoying to use).
And technically, it wouldn't be "much more" broken because you can already do an adlo crit deployed. The only difference would be that you wouldn't have to fish for it.

And they should anyway nerf the adlo crit. Because it's just too strong or too weak.
A non crit adlo is bad, a crit addlo is too good (mostly because you can spread it).

I much prefer the AST shield (from a balance perspective), at least it's more consistent.

[NobleWinter]

I've always felt that Deployment Tactics should be a hanging preemptive buff like Emergency Tactics. It could reduce your Crit Chance on your next single target healing spell by 3% but cause the effect to be spread to everyone around the target. You wouldn't be able to spread Eye for an Eye anymore, which no one should regret considering how lame the skill is, but both the initial heal and shield from Adlo could be shared. Plus, you could spread Physic for a cheap AoE heal when you don't want to overwrite your shields and Emergency Tactics isn't available. By removing and hampering the ability to guarantee a Crit Shield to the party the Cool Down could be reduced immensely to compensate allowing it to be used more often.

[number473]

I don't think the main problem with why SCH is so strong has anything to do with Adloquium specifically. In fact, Adloquium on its own is a rather weak skill; it is very expensive compared to the amount it heals. However, combined with various healing buffs and Deployment Tactics there are ways that it can be abused to get past mechanics in ways that are not intended. I don't think these skills need to be changed at all (although I do think the random nature of the crit bonus of Adloquium plays against the style of SCH which is meant to be measured and planned).
Instead, we just need to get rid of the ability to abuse shields in general, which could be done by setting an upper limit to the amount of shield that someone can have. If we cap the amount of shield possible at 50% or 100% (devs would need to decide how much they think is appropriate) there is no way they can be abused because fights can be planned to take into account the maximum possible amount of shielding available. Something like this would also make it much easier for them to allow all sorts of shields to stack. Currently, only % based shields stack freely because they can always know what the maximum possible amounts would be, but by putting in a hard cap to the amount of shields you wouldn't have to worry about even two SCH or a SCH+AST shield stacking.