Holy knight

[JunseiKei]

If I recall correctly, Paladin here in FFXIV is actually called "Knight" while having skills like "Hallowed Ground", "Holy Spirit" and "Divine Veil." "Clemency" meaning mercy or merciful while being a healing spell (white magic). "Requiescat" being a prayer for the dead. Pretty sure the holiness is implied.

[GrumbleBeard]

"Hallowed Ground", "Holy Spirit" and "Divine Veil." "Clemency" meaning mercy or merciful while being a healing spell (white magic). "Requiescat" being a prayer for the dead. Pretty sure the holiness is implied.

Yeah, a defense move, a shield, a heal, a prayer. They are definitely holy. However, the ones that OP is referring to did not use any of those and rather used that holy power for magic sword attacks. Really, the paladins in FFTA 1 and 2 have little in common with the holy knight class aside from gear.

I don't see why classes can't share a theme or a common weapon. In fact, it places huge limits on what classes you can have when only 1 class can use a one handed sword, 1 class can use a gun, etc.

[JunseiKei]

Yeah, a defense move, a shield, a heal, a prayer. They are definitely holy. However, the ones that OP is referring to did not use any of those and rather used that holy power for magic sword attacks. Really, the paladins in FFTA 1 and 2 have little in common with the holy knight class aside from gear.

I don't see why classes can't share a theme or a common weapon. In fact, it places huge limits on what classes you can have when only 1 class can use a one handed sword, 1 class can use a gun, etc.

<Insert quote about every game has their own vision of X class or job.>
(Oh, found something similar.)

One example of this was the Summoner. That was highly demanded, but once it was in, there were more and more requests. "You should be able to summon all the Summons and Eidolons!" That can push a person to think, "Oh, I shouldn't have included a Summoner in there." It is something that we need to be very mindful of, because something that could be implemented into an MMO may not necessarily be fun in a standalone Final Fantasy. The opposite is also true; an FF element that people have a strong attachment to may not translate well into the world of an MMO.

Click to be taken to the interview.

Probably has something to do with how the game is coded to your main-hand being what triggers what class/job you're on when it comes to the physical main-hand.

[Kabooa]

<Insert quote about every game has their own vision of X class or job.>

Probably has something to do with how the game is coded to your main-hand being what triggers what class/job you're on when it comes to the physical main-hand.

The main hand are classified as "Arms". Gladiator Arms, Dark Knight Arms, etc. They further have a requirement for Class, Job, and Level.

For example, non-Relic weapons are typically "Gladiator Arms, Level Require X, Gladiator - Paladin"

A Paladin relic weapon will be "Gladiator Arms, Level Required X, Paladin"

As class and job are synonymous with each other now, the distinction for Arms Type and Requirement are redundant.

So the coding itself likely goes first by the "Arms" tag and then secondly by the Job Requirement. For jobs without a class, it defaults to Job, which equips the weapon and jobstone.

What this means is that so long as Sword Mage Slinger doesn't use "Gladiator Arms", then there is no conflict even for the exact same weapon model.

And frankly we have every manner of sword imaginable. We have two handed swords, one handed swords, swords that can be two handed or one handed, swords that slash, swords that stab, soon we're going to have swords that shoot bullets.

The only problem I see with having swords that shoot lightning is that we could use some god damn hammers.

[JunseiKei]

The main hand are classified as "Arms". Gladiator Arms, Dark Knight Arms, etc. They further have a requirement for Class, Job, and Level.

For example, non-Relic weapons are typically "Gladiator Arms, Level Require X, Gladiator - Paladin"

A Paladin relic weapon will be "Gladiator Arms, Level Required X, Paladin"

As class and job are synonymous with each other now, the distinction for Arms Type and Requirement are redundant.

So the coding itself likely goes first by the "Arms" tag and then secondly by the Job Requirement. For jobs without a class, it defaults to Job, which equips the weapon and jobstone.

What this means is that so long as Sword Mage Slinger doesn't use "Gladiator Arms", then there is no conflict even for the exact same weapon model.

And frankly we have every manner of sword imaginable. We have two handed swords, one handed swords, swords that can be two handed or one handed, swords that slash, swords that stab, soon we're going to have swords that shoot bullets.

The only problem I see with having swords that shoot lightning is that we could use some god damn hammers.

The way I see it, the weapon more readily shows what someone's job/class is. PvP is a completely perfect example, especially since glamours were allowed into the area. You see someone running at you naked, but with a single handed sword: it's a PLD (as there is a glamour for having no shield). You can easily and readily identify what someone is (yes, I know there's a class/job tag in place of an opponent's name - you can opt out of this setting). Outside of PvP, it's debatable the significance of this, but if it's something wants to be kept, that's what they'd want to have kept.

There's also the question of balance, too. Unless you meant purely for looks. Well, as it is, you can only glamour the same arms.

Yes, we have many different swords in the game, but historically (in game and in reality) for different uses/ fighting styles.

You'd not use a claymore the same way as a longsword, nor would you use anything like a katar (though they are daggers, they function more like a brass-knuckle stabbing weapon than something you'd see a NIN use their daggers for). None of which function the same way a rapier does. All of which are different from a katana. A broadsword is not a jian, though they are similar in looks, but jian functioning more often like a rapier, but still different from a rapier.

The weapons do still need to function for the class/job's animation and I'd honestly hate to see a PLD wield a rapier, or claymore, and swinging it around like they do for Rage of Halone. Maybe I appreciate that more having studied weapons way back in martial arts; just because a weapon is similar in looks does not mean it's identical in use and I can appreciate keeping some semblance of realism with high fantasy in this aspect.

We've already seen Koji's love for pulling names and things from history (dueling circle, despite it being a square). As much as people may hate hearing it, lore is also a good reason. When you forego the lore for things to be implemented (like say this desire), you start poking holes in a narrative that make it start to ring hallow.

Though I'm someone who doesn't like to compare one MMO to another, many others have this same conformity and could be called a standard aspect of the genre. The weapon often defines the class. It's unusual if they have a system that allows freer weapon choices while still having that class aspect.

However, yes, I will agree that the arms type between class and job are largely redundant, but it's something that's forced to exist thanks to 1.0.

tl;dr
Job identity (PvP and PvE) and animations to lend itself to enough realism to not make it utterly ridiculous, and not in the same way someone can wear a metallic green pig-suit kind of ridiculous.

[GrumbleBeard]

<Insert quote about every game has their own vision of X class or job.>

I agree, which is why it would be fine to have it despite similarities in the theme.

[Kabooa]

tl;dr
Job identity (PvP and PvE) and animations to lend itself to enough realism to not make it utterly ridiculous, and not in the same way someone can wear a metallic green pig-suit kind of ridiculous.

There's almost no realism beyond the basic low level weaponskills among animations. You really can't use that argument. Just in the Paladin's weapon models alone there's enough variance that the animations hardly line up with what the sword should be used as.

The Dark Knight Animations work with literally any metal stick, let alone differentiating them between the various models of actual swords.

This goes on and on between the various weapon types.

[JunseiKei]

I agree, which is why it would be fine to have it despite similarities in the theme.

Was saying that in the confines that for all we know, PLD is FFXIV's iteration of Holy Knight. Or it might not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I actually don't know, especially when you consider Yoshida saying the Warriors of Darkness are classes/jobs that we don't have (IE: their "PLD" might be a Holy Knight because he was saying it was another universe).

There's almost no realism beyond the basic low level weaponskills among animations. You really can't use that argument. Just in the Paladin's weapon models alone there's enough variance that the animations hardly line up with what the sword should be used as.

The Dark Knight Animations work with literally any metal stick, let alone differentiating them between the various models of actual swords.

This goes on and on between the various weapon types.

I can and will use that argument as it is part of the whole that is world building. Yes, Dark Knight animations "work" with any object you place in their hands. That doesn't mean it won't look terrible, break lore or just make no sense. You're essentially telling me a MNK will look just as fine using a spear with their animations as their fists; that is the difference of placing a shortsword in the hands of a Dark Knight, whose animations are built around a claymore.

All of which feeds back into the game staying true to its core/lore; if a class/job only uses a certain weapon, then that class/job only uses that weapon. In PLD's case, the lore states they are the "shield of the sultanate" boasting "stalwart shieldwork and exquisite swordplay." - Encyclopaedia Eorzea, page 218. Seems they are pretty intent on keeping the class/job consistent.




However, and I'm not changing my stance in this debate, as I really don't see the FFXIV team changing the weapons of existing classes/jobs, I don't think the weapons of current classes means they won't be seen/used again on another class. As it is, SCH and SMN both use a book (grimoire and codex) as well as WHM and BLM both use rods (cane and staff).

[Kabooa]

I can and will use that argument as it is part of the whole that is world building. Yes, Dark Knight animations "work" with any object you place in their hands. That doesn't mean it won't look terrible, break lore or just make no sense. You're essentially telling me a MNK will look just as fine using a spear with their animations as their fists; that is the difference of placing a shortsword in the hands of a Dark Knight, whose animations are built around a claymore.

Except they're more appropriate with the PVP Glamour weapon, the beatstick. Seriously. The Beatstick makes it seem like the Dark Knight -should- have been a two handed club job, because the consideration of weight and momentum given to the animations fits a crushing weapon far better. When the sword is big enough, it's not really about it being a sword anymore.

Put a giant metal stick in Guts's hand, and he'll use it exactly like his sword, it'll just leave a bigger mess behind.

[JunseiKei]

Except they're more appropriate with the PVP Glamour weapon, the beatstick. Seriously. The Beatstick makes it seem like the Dark Knight -should- have been a two handed club job, because the consideration of weight and momentum given to the animations fits a crushing weapon far better. When the sword is big enough, it's not really about it being a sword anymore.

Put a giant metal stick in Guts's hand, and he'll use it exactly like his sword, it'll just leave a bigger mess behind.

The PvP club? You mean the onii club, Kanabō? This is why I said at least part of this is grounded in reality - a two-handed club/blunt weapon doesn't exist in reality. At least, not in that way. The closest equivalent is a bo or rod. After that, you find maces or possibly the Macuahuitl, which is a PLD arm already (and single handed). It's also said that Dark Knight did take inspiration from Berserk.

Speaking of Berserk (which is why I'm guessing you brought up Guts)...

...With Guts though, he doesn't like normal swords. He actively turns down smaller swords when offered (happened once or twice). He always uses a claymore. Also, you're not getting a much bigger sword than Dragonslayer.

(In my opinion, none of the moves would fit with a club - you don't use a blunt weapon the same way as a slashing weapon, but you may use it similarly to a piercing one. That's probably why DRG got the Eastern Journey Battle Staff item.)