Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

[Nezerius]

You can get your eureka weapon in a few days if you're crazy enough.

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".

And as already said by Whiskey and Cassandra, gear is not very relevant for your numbers if you don't know your job's rotation and how to adapt to different encounters. I've seen ilvl 380+ players in expert roulettes being outdpsed by healers and tanks. Gear won't help those players.

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

[HyoMinPark]

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

[Tint]

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

Again I am fine with the raidgear is BiS, but the relic should be a step above of the tomeweapon. Having the best gear (or better gear) of course is not necessary to clear the easier content, but it is necessary to justify the long relic grind (wich gets longer and longer with every added step).

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.
I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

[HyoMinPark]

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.

If a BLM in full i400 gear only does an ice mage rotation or something even worse than that, it doesn’t matter what their gear is. A BLM in i380 gear doing a proper rotation will do more damage—and not just a couple hundred... they will do a couple thousand more—which will make them more valuable to a party despite their lesser gear. Because the party isn’t having to carry them and work harder to make up the difference in damage.

Same for tanks and healers—who cares if one tank is BiS if they can’t maintain aggro or rotate their cooldowns? Why take them over a tank in lesser gear who does rotate cooldowns and properly manage aggro? Who cares if the healer is in BiS but they can’t keep the party alive? Why take them over a healer in crafted gear that can both outheal and outDPS the other healer?


Better gear will only make a difference if you have a good, solid rotation. You can only make the most out of your new, better gear if you understand the basics of your job. As I said, you need a good foundation before you start building a house on it. A house without a good foundation will be shaky at best, and fall more often than not.

You look at both factors; you don’t just ignore one for the other, and that goes both ways—high gear/low damage and low gear/high damage. You look at all of the factors, and I never said that you didn’t or shouldn’t. You don’t just ignore low damage because “they have high item level gear”, just like you don’t ignore another player with high damage because “they are in the crafted stuff”. First thing I look at when I see a player doing low damage is what their gear is. And I usually see them in current gear; sometimes even better gear than myself. Yet, my numbers are higher. Further analysis usually shows errors in their rotation, or a lack of active time in battle (not necessarily deaths, but things like waiting several seconds between GCDs to use skills, so that their CPM is lower and they aren’t keeping their GCD rolling while on a boss).

My all-time favorite instance of showing that better gear doesn’t matter if you don’t know the basics was during a Shinryu Ex farm group. A MCH in i330/i340 gear was berating a MNK in the i320 crafted for being the reason that we were seeing second Aerial Blast (lol) because he was in “crap gear”. Yet, the MCH was being outDPS’d by both tanks with zero deaths and the MNK was top DPS. So, who was the real problem there? Certainly not the MNK in i320.

I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

That doesn’t make it okay to force other players to carry you. And just because the content doesn’t require even 50% doesn’t mean that you should play at 25%. Because the people that play at 25% may eventually wander into content where you do need more than even 50%. And they are still play at 25%. And they think that’s still okay when it really isn’t, and then get angry at people for removing them from the party (there was a thread someone made here about being “wrongfully kicked” from a V2S group for low damage where they did less than the tank in the party).

This is also the exact mindset that a lot of people that want carries have. And it’s a poor mindset to have; so hopefully they don’t have a problem when people see they clearly don’t care about being a burden to their group and remove them to find someone who will have a bit of respect for their teammates.

[Tint]

This is also the exact mindset that a lot of people that want carries have. And it’s a poor mindset to have; so hopefully they don’t have a problem when people see they clearly don’t care about being a burden to their group and remove them to find someone who will have a bit of respect for their teammates.

Yeah, and I wanted to point out that "you don't need the best gear to clear the content" is the same mindset as "you don't need a proper rotation to clear the content."

Shouldn't we try to improve both? Rotation AND gear?

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, and I wanted to point out that "you don't need the best gear to clear the content" is the same mindset as "you don't need a proper rotation to clear the content."

Shouldn't we try to improve both? Rotation AND gear?

You’ve obviously misinterpreted my statement discussing necessity.

Saying something isn’t necessary is not saying that you cannot desire it, and that you cannot desire improvement. But people act as if it is absolutely necessary to have the best gear ever in their Expert Roulettes, and that they are entitled to have it, when it is simply overkill for the content. That is an objective statement, and, quite frankly, a fact.

And it’s not like I don’t have an issue with gear being irrelevant in all but 1% of activities. I’d rather content be scaled to where I don’t make it roll in gear from previous patches or tiers—but then, suddenly, everything is “too hard”. I’d rather the minimum item level for the current dungeons be ~i370 and them hit hard enough to where they don’t roll over in i360. Make the gear relevant; because right now it is irrelevant. I did both Expert dungeons and the entirety of Alphascape normal mode in i360 gear. I didn’t even have i380 crafted gear. And they rolled over. That shouldn’t be okay. My i380 gear shouldn’t be unnecessary for the content, but it is. Which is what I was saying—not that you should be okay with being below average.


I believe there is also a difference between “you don’t need i400 for this fight; you can clear it easily in i380” and “you don’t need to perform a basic rotation in this content; others can easily carry you through it with you only spamming one ability”. One is clearly a far bigger detriment than the other, and it’s not the gear; so I don’t find them to be equal statements.

[Gurney]

Let's face it: Gerolt's lost his touch

When he was heavy drinking is when he did his best work.

[RyoXander]

No. If you want FFXI mechanics, go play FFXI. That's not this game, and that's not what relics should be in this game.

People really need to stop trying to jam FFXI's mechanics into this game. "This game should be FFXI-2" is exactly why Eureka was developed and why it sucks so bad.

I never mentioned anything about wanting this game to be exactly like FFXI so calm down. However this game does need improving in some ways which FFXI happened to do better. The Relic weapon system was one of them. Until the last few years where the game became excessively easy, Relic weapons were extremely rare to find. That's how they should be. Meant for only the most dedicated of players to obtain.

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

Doing so will allow you to continuously work towards your relic after every patch and at the end, you will have a weapon that is far stronger than any other option because it will be the culmination of years worth of effort.

[Lumis_Arvalo]

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".!

I know a number of people who had their first elemental weapon within a week of Pagos dropping. I'll agree that's not the "norm", but let's not act like these people don't exist.

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

So you want a weapon that was designed to be for casual players to grind out over time to be gated behind items that come from raid content, and thus be for raiders? That's... really dumb. That's not what the relic is supposed to be in this game. If that's how it was in FFXI and you enjoyed that, then go back to FFXI. That system sounds terrible for a game like this.

[Lastelli]

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

I would be totally favorable to a relic that requires a very light grind, but also requires to complete the hardest content in the game. In that case, there wouldn't be anything wrong with a BiS relic. Unfortunately, the dev team wants the relic to be locked behind content that anyone can easily clear, so that's not going to happen.