Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

[Bourne_Endeavor]

We also have both the HW and ARR relic grinds, since a suggestion like this couldn't be properly developed for during this expansion. Make it so a player who grinds regularly will be able to obtain both the weapon and the set about 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch. The average person would get it shortly before said patch, while the crazy-no-life-grinding player would get it earlier than that (but really, should you even balance things with that last one in mind?) That should be enough of a grind for players to decide whether they want to go for it, or take one of the less grindy alternatives.
As for the 4.5 primal, it'd drop i395 weapons anyway (See: i365 Zurvanite weapons, i375 Alexandrian weapons).

A grind lasting nearly the whole length of an even numbered patch wouldn't be an issue, no. That wasn't your initial argument though. You're moving the goal posts.

This is assuming the relic set takes less than a month to get. You'd also have to keep in mind that Crafted gear would be getting augmented versions in the odd-numbered patches (See: 4.3, i350>i360 augmentation).

Outside the arduous grind of the Identifiable Ore step, the relic has never taken longer than a month unless one opts to progress at a very casual pace. Furthermore, you're neglecting odd numbered patches are intended for catch up purposes. It's entirely different to release relic armor that will directly compete with new brand crafted and normal mode gear. This directly pulls people away from queues and purchasing crafted gear outside hardcore raiders.

The tomestone would still have 5 iLvls over both the i385 and the i395 versions of the relic (the latter when augmenting the tomestone weapon). While you'd be able to augment the relic 1 floor before the one that drops Scaevan Esters, The time it'd take to get the relic should be enough for the more dedicated raiders to get one. Not to mention that the 4.5 primal weapon would be 5 iLvls above the base tomestone weapon.
Also, this one can easily be turned around: Why grind for a relic when you could just get a tomestone weapon?

At the cost of equipment. If the relic releases at the same time, per your original argument, this makes the tome weapon poor value. It takes three weeks worth of tomes and sets you back on further gear progression whereas the relic offers no such hindrance. Likewise, being able to increase the relic to i395 invalidates the odd numbered Primal before it even releases. Even with your aforementioned Zurvan example, the i270 step released with him, not before.

Glamour. That has always been the main incentive for the relics. As I outline later on, even in Heavensward, the relic only ever matched the tome weapon in odd patches not even.

You're too focused on the way Eureka works, when XIV has had relic grind before Eureka (even if this is the first one to have relic armor). Besides, have you ever run the 24-man raid to upgrade pieces on your main job?

XIV never had a relic armor grind before, thus Eureka is our only frame of reference. Regardless, I'm not the target audience for 24-man raids. At least not on my main. It's intended purpose has generally been for alt jobs. People will be far less inclined to run it repeatedly for one week drops if they can obtain relic armor... which has no limitation. Granted, this is less an issue if it releases later into the patch.

And that's how the grind should be. The way SE forced the relic grind into its own instance was a mistake, and I sure hope the 5.x relic will go back to how things were in ARR/HW.

And yet, that still contradicts your argument. The i210 step was met with wide spread criticism for being too grind-y, which is the only time the relic held the same ilvl to raids weapon; the i240 step released in 3.3, thus impacted nothing, and the i275 step you mentioned came in 3.5a, five weeks after Zurvan EX. Therefore, only the i270 step competed with any Primal (Zurvan). And only during the last major patch of Heavenswards. If they go back to HW... you'll have this precise same formula in terms of ilvl progression. In fact, let's look at the Midas tier.

Raid weapon: i245
Tome weapon: i230 (i240 augmented)
Relic: i230 (released five weeks later)
Sephirot: i220

The above isn't what you proposed in your initial rebuttal. You wanted relics released at roughly the same time whereas in Heavensward, Sephirot and crafted/normal gear went unopposed for five weeks before you could even start the relic step.

[Nezerius]

A grind lasting nearly the whole length of an even numbered patch wouldn't be an issue, no. That wasn't your initial argument though. You're moving the goal posts.

My initial reply to your list even stated that it'd depend on how much of a grind it'd be. Just because I didn't go into specifics then doesn't mean I'm moving the goal posts. But feel free to think that I have.

Outside the arduous grind of the Identifiable Ore step, the relic has never taken longer than a month unless one opts to progress at a very casual pace. Furthermore, you're neglecting odd numbered patches are intended for catch up purposes. It's entirely different to release relic armor that will directly compete with new brand crafted and normal mode gear. This directly pulls people away from queues and purchasing crafted gear outside hardcore raiders.

Yes, I'm sure every player will go on a month+ grind to get their relic armor, which, I might add, would be for one job. Players who don't go for the grind would still buy the crafted gear if they want to gear up faster. Players who grind for the relic armor, but also want to gear up alts, could also still be buying crafted armor.

At the cost of equipment. If the relic releases at the same time, per your original argument, this makes the tome weapon poor value. It takes three weeks worth of tomes and sets you back on further gear progression whereas the relic offers no such hindrance. Likewise, being able to increase the relic to i395 invalidates the odd numbered Primal before it even releases. Even with your aforementioned Zurvan example, the i270 step released with him, not before.

Raiders would likely be obtaining their base tomestone weapons faster than the ones getting the relic (due to getting the tomestone drop). The base relic would still be i385 (5 iLvls lower than the base tomestone weapon), but you seemed to have skipped over that part of my post. The i395 version is only obtained after actually obtaining the i385 version.
I'd also like to remind you that the Animus weapon was added in 2.2, along with Leviathan EX. The Animus weapon was i100 while the base Leviathan weapon was i95, which could only be upgraded to i100 by obtaining a rare drop. Somehow, this didn't invalidate Leviathan at all, since I still saw people going for those weapons back then.

Glamour. That has always been the main incentive for the relics. As I outline later on, even in Heavensward, the relic only ever matched the tome weapon in odd patches not even.

First of all, the +1 relic would like to have a word with you (pre-Allagan iLvl buff). Second, glamour really shouldn't be the main incentive. It should only be part of the incentive to grind for it.

XIV never had a relic armor grind before, thus Eureka is our only frame of reference. Regardless, I'm not the target audience for 24-man raids. At least not on my main. It's intended purpose has generally been for alt jobs. People will be far less inclined to run it repeatedly for one week drops if they can obtain relic armor... which has no limitation. Granted, this is less an issue if it releases later into the patch.

Just because XIV has never had relic armor before, doesn't mean that the game hasn't had relic grinds before. Take the relic weapon grind, replace it with a hat and you have a relic armor grind. I'd also like to point out that I mentioned the 24-man raid being a good way to get gear on alts (because few are crazy enough to grind for multiple relic sets), It's also another option for players who don't like the grind, but the idea of those people existing seems to be going over your head.

And yet, that still contradicts your argument. The i210 step was met with wide spread criticism for being too grind-y

So what? Let them complain. If they can't handle the grind, then there'll be less grindy options to get a weapon/gear. And as a bonus, primal/crafted/normal raid gear isn't invalidated!

The above isn't what you proposed in your initial rebuttal. You wanted relics released at roughly the same time whereas in Heavensward, Sephirot and crafted/normal gear went unopposed for five weeks before you could even start the relic step.

And this is a good idea how? Just let players grind right away. There's going to be plenty of players who will find it too much of a grind, who will then go with the other options.

But at the end of the day, we're better off agreeing to disagree. You prefer relics being a glamour stick, while I'd prefer relics being more than that.

[Wijnand]

Relics should be useful but never as useful until late in the patch. I assume your fine with the weekly twines?

The way HW did it was fair. The only reason this came up was cause pagos was a flaming pile of debris.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

My initial reply to your list even stated that it'd depend on how much of a grind it'd be. Just because I didn't go into specifics then doesn't mean I'm moving the goal posts. But feel free to think that I have.

Your initial reply cited wanting the relic to release at the same time as the raid tier. You go on to mention wanting it to be like Heavensward. This never occurred, as demonstrated in my last response.

Yes, I'm sure every player will go on a month+ grind to get their relic armor, which, I might add, would be for one job. Players who don't go for the grind would still buy the crafted gear if they want to gear up faster. Players who grind for the relic armor, but also want to gear up alts, could also still be buying crafted armor.

I simply said the relic has never taken longer than a month outside extremely grind steps they ultimately did away with, excluding Pagos. Our only example of relic armor thus far is Anemos, which was considerably faster. Given the trajectory Stormblood has followed as a whole, it likely wouldn't be longer than a couple weeks. This does invalidate crafted and normal mode. The more gear alternatives added, the more inclined people are to wait for better things. If people know they can get a full relic set sans the weapon in three weeks. They're less likely to bother with purchasing one or farming Normal Mode. Now if you want to argue for relic armor that takes well beyond a month or releases 5-6 weeks thereafter... like Heavensward. It's another argument entirely.

Raiders would likely be obtaining their base tomestone weapons faster than the ones getting the relic (due to getting the tomestone drop). The base relic would still be i385 (5 iLvls lower than the base tomestone weapon), but you seemed to have skipped over that part of my post. The i395 version is only obtained after actually obtaining the i385 version.
I'd also like to remind you that the Animus weapon was added in 2.2, along with Leviathan EX. The Animus weapon was i100 while the base Leviathan weapon was i95, which could only be upgraded to i100 by obtaining a rare drop. Somehow, this didn't invalidate Leviathan at all, since I still saw people going for those weapons back then.

I did no such thing. You're choosing to ignore what I said. There is a cost with the tome weapon. Borrowing the Aether Oil step for example sake. It is far more efficient use of tomes to spend five weeks or less working on the relic, purchasing both your body/legs and another piece than spending them on a five ilvl increase. This renders the tome weapon useless, especially if the relic has more materia slots or customizable stats. The sole exception would be if it had trash stats like no Crit for Bard. The only reason the tome weapon has any value now is due to it being the only means of obtaining a weapon close to the raid weapon. This isn't inherently a problem... if the relic either has a longer grind or doesn't release with the tier itself. Five weeks isn't bad, but you could easily hasten the Aether Oil process through simply grinding dungeons for a week.

Just because XIV has never had relic armor before, doesn't mean that the game hasn't had relic grinds before. Take the relic weapon grind, replace it with a hat and you have a relic armor grind. I'd also like to point out that I mentioned the 24-man raid being a good way to get gear on alts (because few are crazy enough to grind for multiple relic sets), It's also another option for players who don't like the grind, but the idea of those people existing seems to be going over your head.

I mean if you want the precise same grind for each individual piece, by all means. People tend to complain... which leads to easier and easier alternatives. It's incredibly unlikely the devs would maintain the same lengthily grind for each piece as that slows progression to a halt. But it wouldn't impact anything as it'll take forever. I'll grant you that. Ironically, it wouldn't meet your demand to be more than glamour seeing as by the time you finish... the next patch will be out. So I don't exactly see the argument here.

So what? Let them complain. If they can't handle the grind, then there'll be less grindy options to get a weapon/gear. And as a bonus, primal/crafted/normal raid gear isn't invalidated!

Yes, let's bring back the step nobody liked. Raiders hated it because their gear wasn't even BiS despite it being significantly harder to obtain. And casuals hated it because the grind took forever—to the point the relic ultimately accomplished nothing. There's a reason they moved away from this.

And this is a good idea how? Just let players grind right away. There's going to be plenty of players who will find it too much of a grind, who will then go with the other options.

But at the end of the day, we're better off agreeing to disagree. You prefer relics being a glamour stick, while I'd prefer relics being more than that.

And there are plenty more who won't. Bear in mind, people too lazy to grind and aren't inclined to make gil either. Delaying the relic has always been to allow crafters a chance to sell new gear and to keep Normal Mode as the focus. I don't want the relic to be a glamour stick, but I also don't want it ruining my craft markets.

If you want an insanely long grind just so the relic can release immediately. Well, given past history... you're a very small minority. HW did things fine from Midas onward because no, I do not believe the relic should match the raid weapon until near the end of the expansion.

[Nezerius]

Your initial reply cited wanting the relic to release at the same time as the raid tier. You go on to mention wanting it to be like Heavensward. This never occurred, as demonstrated in my last response.

Wanting the grind to be like Heavensward =/= wanting it to be exactly like Heavensward. You completely missed the point, since I was talking about the fact that the grind shouldn't be limited to one zone (Eureka). My reply even goes on saying "The way SE forced the relic grind into its own instance was a mistake"

Now if you want to argue for relic armor that takes well beyond a month or releases 5-6 weeks thereafter... like Heavensward. It's another argument entirely.

Which is exactly what I'm arguing for? You do know that the time period between an even-numbered and and odd-numbered patch is 3,5-4 months, right? (Referring to this part of my posts: "Make it so a player who grinds regularly will be able to obtain both the weapon and the set about 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch.")

I did no such thing. You're choosing to ignore what I said. There is a cost with the tome weapon. Borrowing the Aether Oil step for example sake. It is far more efficient use of tomes to spend five weeks or less working on the relic, purchasing both your body/legs and another piece than spending them on a five ilvl increase. This renders the tome weapon useless, especially if the relic has more materia slots or customizable stats. The sole exception would be if it had trash stats like no Crit for Bard. The only reason the tome weapon has any value now is due to it being the only means of obtaining a weapon close to the raid weapon. This isn't inherently a problem... if the relic either has a longer grind or doesn't release with the tier itself. Five weeks isn't bad, but you could easily hasten the Aether Oil process through simply grinding dungeons for a week.

Except the grind would be longer than 5 weeks, and the relic would still be 5 iLvls below the tomestone weapons. Reminder that there's 14 to 16 weeks in 3,5-4 months.

I mean if you want the precise same grind for each individual piece, by all means. People tend to complain... which leads to easier and easier alternatives. It's incredibly unlikely the devs would maintain the same lengthily grind for each piece as that slows progression to a halt. But it wouldn't impact anything as it'll take forever. I'll grant you that. Ironically, it wouldn't meet your demand to be more than glamour seeing as by the time you finish... the next patch will be out. So I don't exactly see the argument here.

I'm just saying that the relic armor isn't some unique and special thing that can be exempt from other examples of grinds that happened before its introduction. Besides, one of my posts even stated that players regularly grinding it would obtain it 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch (which, in essence, is "the next patch", after the even-numbered one).

Yes, let's bring back the step nobody liked. Raiders hated it because their gear wasn't even BiS despite it being significantly harder to obtain. And casuals hated it because the grind took forever—to the point the relic ultimately accomplished nothing. There's a reason they moved away from this.

Raiders already have a faster alternative to get better gear, so they're not even the target audience of relic weapons/armor to begin with. Casuals (taking the definition of players who don't play much), shouldn't be the target audience either. It should be for the players that enjoy grinding for a useful reward (which it would be, if they can obtain one job's relics around the halfway point of a patch cycle).

And there are plenty more who won't. Bear in mind, people too lazy to grind and aren't inclined to make gil either. Delaying the relic has always been to allow crafters a chance to sell new gear and to keep Normal Mode as the focus. I don't want the relic to be a glamour stick, but I also don't want it ruining my craft markets.

The delay really isn't all that needed anymore, considering how they changed it so crafted DoW/M sets can be easily HQed on day 1 of the patch. Casuals, that don't like the time commitment of the relic grind nor have the gil for crafted gear, would still go with normal mode gear.

If you want an insanely long grind just so the relic can release immediately. Well, given past history... you're a very small minority. HW did things fine from Midas onward because no, I do not believe the relic should match the raid weapon until near the end of the expansion.

I'd hardly call a 3-4 month grind insane, if you can enjoy the rewards for another 3-4 months after.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Wanting the grind to be like Heavensward =/= wanting it to be exactly like Heavensward. You completely missed the point

And you continuously miss mine. If they add relic armor, thus increasing the total amount of relic components per job to six, they will either have to substantially reduce the grind on each individual piece or it's rendered pointless. If it takes several months per piece, almost none will have any relevance whatsoever. Your entire comparison here simply doesn't work. Therefore, the weapon won't take fourteen weeks. It will follower a progression curve similar to Anemos, albeit not quite as fast. So no, the grind may very well not be longer than five weeks. The only way to make relics useful in this scenario is speeding up their acquisition. If relic armor released at i380 but each piece took say, a month each. You wouldn't have more than four pieces, including the weapon, before the next patch. Making it... just glamour.

Raiders already have a faster alternative to get better gear, so they're not even the target audience of relic weapons/armor to begin with. Casuals (taking the definition of players who don't play much), shouldn't be the target audience either. It should be for the players that enjoy grinding for a useful reward (which it would be, if they can obtain one job's relics around the halfway point of a patch cycle).

You missed my point again. I'll rephase. The vast majority of people, spanning all skill and playtime levels despised the Unidentifiable step due to its sheer length. The devs openly acknowledged this backlash hence why they moved away from it ever since. At least until Pagos... and received even more vitriol. Granted, more due to how utterly boring Pagos is. Nevertheless, you may fancy a 3-4 month grind, however, you are a distinct minority. Like I said, they more or less abandoned the enormous grind alternative because people hated it. I guarantee you will never see this again. At best, you will see it compete with the tome weapon and never anything else.

[Maero]

I have said it before but in the 5 or so years i have been playing it will be the first time i do not complete a Relic to the end.
SB Relics are an utter waste of time and you really cannot use them outside of glam purposes. HW at least after each update you were able to use it for content. It was a big fail this expansion in my opinion.
Introducing the Relic late and it's updates are not helping either.

[Nezerius]

And you continuously miss mine. If they add relic armor, thus increasing the total amount of relic components per job to six, they will either have to substantially reduce the grind on each individual piece or it's rendered pointless. If it takes several months per piece, almost none will have any relevance whatsoever. Your entire comparison here simply doesn't work. Therefore, the weapon won't take fourteen weeks. It will follower a progression curve similar to Anemos, albeit not quite as fast. So no, the grind may very well not be longer than five weeks. The only way to make relics useful in this scenario is speeding up their acquisition. If relic armor released at i380 but each piece took say, a month each. You wouldn't have more than four pieces, including the weapon, before the next patch. Making it... just glamour.

They don't have to reward them piece by piece, since they can just use the underused armor chest feature for this. That means they won't get the relic set until finishing the grind, meaning no gear rewards until that point.
Well look at that, those players suddenly have a reason to get some crafted or normal raid gear during their grind! Guess those two haven't been invalidated after all! Besides, y'know, gearing up alt jobs, because who would be crazy enough to go through the same grind over again for those?

And if they can't make that work, even though i380 really isn't -that- big of a deal (considering you can just get a full set of crafted i380 in a few days), then it'd be fine to just scrap the entire relic armor thing altogether. The relic quest chain had always been focused on working on improving a weapon anyway.

You missed my point again. I'll rephase. The vast majority of people, spanning all skill and playtime levels despised the Unidentifiable step due to its sheer length. The devs openly acknowledged this backlash hence why they moved away from it ever since. At least until Pagos... and received even more vitriol. Granted, more due to how utterly boring Pagos is. Nevertheless, you may fancy a 3-4 month grind, however, you are a distinct minority. Like I said, they more or less abandoned the enormous grind alternative because people hated it. I guarantee you will never see this again. At best, you will see it compete with the tome weapon and never anything else.

Guessing your memory is rather foggy? The issue with the first set of anima quests was due to the fact that the weapon was the same iLvl as the Gordias raid weapon, and the grind had to reflect a similar time frame. They didn't change it because people hated it, they changed it because they lowered the relic to no longer be at the same iLvl as the current raid. In turn, that allowed them to relax on the time frame requirement on the grind.
Don't believe this? You can read about it in this post from Yoshi-P: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/276368
Added note: the relic being 10 iLvls below the current raid weapon (and 5 below the tomestone weapon) also fits with their concept of "Will not be the strongest weapon at the same time as the rewards for clearing the hardest difficulty content."

A "distinct minority" hasn't stopped SE from making changes or adding something to the game. The weapon in your signature is a clear example of that. I imagine the amount of players going for a long grind to obtain relics is significantly higher than the amount of players going for an Ultima Weapon Ultimate or Unending Coil clear.

[Wijnand]

Isn't this entire thread about wanting relics on par with savage?

Just because you don't want to raid doesn't mean you need a 405 weapon. Just as much i am not entitled to crafting gear if i dont work on that.

You don't need the 405 stuff if all you do us dungeons. The way hw did it was fine. Pagos just ruined it. Weapons become useless every 6 months so making a 20.000 crystal farm is ridiculous pagos is already a farm too far.

[Nezerius]

Isn't this entire thread about wanting relics on par with savage?

I'm fairly sure everyone, other than the OP, is disagreeing with the suggestion of having the relic at the same iLvl as the savage weapon.