Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

[RareItems]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

The best weapons in FFXI are relics. The Bosses in Escha zones drop some freebie weapons that count as Raid weapons but are no where near as powerful as the relics or as what FFXI calls them "R.E.M.A" weapons.

Having the Relics/Eurekan weapons at the same ilvl as Raid weapons, gives all players something to progress and log in for. Reducing it as a glamour item killed it.

Not everyone likes to raid. Just like not everyone likes to do Relics/Eureka. Raiders have something to do every week. Give the casuals something to do as well, progression wise that is actually worth the time doing not just for glamour.

[technole]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

Ignorance is bliss.

Cause some raiders don't even get their Omega i405 after a month of O12S clears. Bad RNG could mean only four unique weapons for a raid via the coffer drop, and the other drops for jobs they don't play after a month.

If you PUG O12S and never get your weapon coffer drop, Otherwise they will need to spend 8 pages, or two months of clears.

[Vaer]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

The best weapons in FFXI are relics. The Bosses in Escha zones drop some freebie weapons that count as Raid weapons but are no where near as powerful as the relics or as what FFXI calls them "R.E.M.A" weapons.

Having the Relics/Eurekan weapons at the same ilvl as Raid weapons, gives all players something to progress and log in for. Reducing it as a glamour item killed it.

Not everyone likes to raid. Just like not everyone likes to do Relics/Eureka. Raiders have something to do every week. Give the casuals something to do as well, progression wise that is actually worth the time doing not just for glamour.

Not no incentive, less incentive. Weapons are only for players that clear the entire thing, just like the mount. Once they drop the catchup patch where you can get the upgrade items you can get comparable gear to the first 3 raid turns except maybe 1 ring due to them being unique.

IIRC They've also tried this before. When the game was released the relic actually had ilvl of the raid weapon at 90. They buffed the raid weapon by 5 ilvls in 2.1 then left it like that. This was when the relic was gated behind titan (hard).
In HW, during gordias the relic had the same ilvl as the raid weapon, but was super grindy that people came here to complain (unidentified step), and when midas came out they went back to +5 and it has been like that ever since.

I'd be cool with it if there were skill checks involved (i.e. clearing ex primals, a solo instance that is a mechanic check made specifically for relic, etc) and not just grinding mild difficulty content for 60 hours per step.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

- Suzaku and 4.5 Primal are useless outside mount farming
The 'base' relic would be at the same iLvl as the Suzaku weapon. The relic would still be better, due to the extra materia slots, but the Suzaku weapon would be a faster less-grindy option. Alternatively, go back to primals dropping accessories, possibly with a rare chance of a weapon (turning glamour into part of the incentive to farm for the weapons).

We only have Anemos as the baseline for a relic grind of both weapons and gear. Even if we extend the length of that template, it wouldn't take longer than two weeks to grind out a relic. In fact, despite how horrendously tedious Pagos is, you could, technically, have a weapon in 2-4 weeks. Suzaku, meanwhile is intended to last for the patch's entire duration, not less than a month. Furthermore, if you can upgrade it to i395, this still defeats the purpose of a 4.5 Primal. As for a glamour weapon. They already do that with Primal crafted weapons released later on.

- Crafted gear markets crash obscenely fast
With relic gear at i380, it would be the same as the Crafted gear, and would boil down to stat combinations, and overmelding vs. 5 guaranteed melds. They could even raise the relic gear to i385 or 390 with the odd-numbered patch, if they decide to augment the crafted gear again (i380>i390, similar to the i350>i360 thing in 4.3).
Crafted weapons sorta get the short end of the stick here.
All in all, it'd come down to "Get gear upgrades now" vs. "Get gear upgrades after a grind", with Alphascale normal being sort of a middle ground.

The only scenario where Crafted gear would be better is if the relic gear had Skill/Spell Speed on jobs that dislike it. Regardless, Crafted gear lasts throughout the entire tier as people continuously opt to purchase it, though sales typically drop once Normal Mode is unlocked. Having Relic Armor obtainable immediately, speeds up this process, which means within a month or so, crafters have much less options when it comes to making a profit.

- Alphascape Normal is obsolete
Both of these would depend on how much of a grind it'd be to get the relic gear/weapon. People who want a less grindy way of gearing would have this as an option, along with the crystalloid from v12.

It takes five weeks to obtain a full set of left side gear from Normal Mode; seven if you include the Crystalloid. Even Pagos, grind-y as it were didn't take that long. Considering the devs have already mentioned using Anemos as their template, we can assume Pyros' grind will be considerably reduced. Keep in mind, acquiring a second relic piece is already significantly faster since you aren't waiting for information to be released nor do you have to level.

- Tome weapons are more or less useless
In this scenario, the tomestone weapon would still be 5 iLvls higher than the relic, although its strength should be relatively the same (due to the extra materia slots). Players who grind out the relic fast enough, will be able to obtain a weapon slightly better than the tomestone weapon, before other players get their Scaevan Esters from v11s.

That tomestone weapon comes at a cost: 1,000 tomes which could be otherwise put towards your gear upgrades. A relic, meanwhile, costs nothing except time. And as noted above, even with a grind longer than Anemos, it becomes easier on subsequent attempts. Basically, the relic would need to take much longer than three weeks or using your tomes on a weapon would simply be a complete waste.

- 24 man gear serves no purpose as a "catch up" drop
Considering what their stance on the "greed-only" thing was, with how they saw 24-man gear to be "catch up" gear for alt jobs, I don't think this would be affected all that much with an increase in relic iLvl
Even then, if they decide to go with raising the relic gear to i385/i390 in the odd-numbered patch, it'd still only be slightly stronger than the 24-man gear.

Slightly stronger with no restriction. I can only obtain one piece of gear from the 24 man each week, whereas I can grind to my hearts content should I choose. By the time 4.3 rolled around, I had full relic sets for multiple jobs. Even if we assume Pyros' grind will be longer than Anemos, it will still render 24 man loot drops obsolete.

The relic being a huge grind doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, if it's a grind that actually feels rewarding once the player has finished it. This is why it's important to keep it closer to the raid weapon iLvl, and add it earlier. A big reason why I never went from the Pagos weapon was because of when they added it. I just knew that by the time I had obtained it, I'd only be able to enjoy it for maybe a week or two before being able to just grab a higher iLvl crafted or primal weapon.

I agree, which is what Heavensward did. You don't accomplish this by invalidating every other means of progression or severely diminishing their relevancy. Another factor not considered is how this impacts queues. People are far less likely to continuously spam Normal Mode or farm Suzaku EX when they can grind Eureka for a better reward. Unless, of course, the design is so abysmal, no one wants to bother. I don't think we should hope for another poor render of Eureka just to keep alternative content relevant.

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

I'll throw this argument back at you. Why do you need weapon/gear equivalent to raiders for dungeons? Even Eureka itself syncs you done, thus your ilvl is entirely irrelevant. And no, we cannot farm Savage. It can take upwards of eight weeks to obtain your chest piece from O12S. Even with the guaranteed coffer each week, that still requires eight weeks before everyone has their weapon unless RNG favors your group. Furthermore, none of this accounts for the potential length it takes to clear Savage. Eureka is a static, ultimately brainless endeavour. It never changes, making the only obstacle how much time you're willing to invest. Raiding, on the other hand, requires a collective group of eight people planning out a schedule where everyone will be available, each player needs to be relatively skilled and should any of you pug outside these allotted times, you punish your group.

So even if we assume obtaining a relic weapon at i405 takes a month. The vast majority of statics will not have even cleared O12S yet. Even those who cleared week one will still have upwards of four members without a weapon and/or body piece. Therefore, the relic now because more efficient than Savage for gearing purposes.

What it boils down to is raiders get a jump on gear progression and a better weapon to reward them for clearing significantly harder content. You're asking that reward be taken away because you want equally good gear... for less effort. Like Vaer said, I would be far more open to the idea if it required some degree of skill. Killing thousands of brain dead mobs or spamming dungeons isn't the same level of effort as learning a sixteen minute dance you're expected to perform near flawlessly.

[Nezerius]

snip

I'm just going to assume that you didn't bother reading my post(s), aside from the one line of text where I said that progressing your character is fun. If you had, you'd have known that I don't agree with putting the relic at the same iLvl as the savage weapon, but close to it (i395 vs. i405).

So is using fancy glam. Take the stuff off the mog station and let us grind for it.

See how well that works?

Sure thing, I'd rather grind for those mogstation glamours than having to pay for them, after all.

Not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this one.

We only have Anemos as the baseline for a relic grind of both weapons and gear. Even if we extend the length of that template, it wouldn't take longer than two weeks to grind out a relic. In fact, despite how horrendously tedious Pagos is, you could, technically, have a weapon in 2-4 weeks. Suzaku, meanwhile is intended to last for the patch's entire duration, not less than a month. Furthermore, if you can upgrade it to i395, this still defeats the purpose of a 4.5 Primal. As for a glamour weapon. They already do that with Primal crafted weapons released later on.

We also have both the HW and ARR relic grinds, since a suggestion like this couldn't be properly developed for during this expansion. Make it so a player who grinds regularly will be able to obtain both the weapon and the set about 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch. The average person would get it shortly before said patch, while the crazy-no-life-grinding player would get it earlier than that (but really, should you even balance things with that last one in mind?) That should be enough of a grind for players to decide whether they want to go for it, or take one of the less grindy alternatives.
As for the 4.5 primal, it'd drop i395 weapons anyway (See: i365 Zurvanite weapons, i375 Alexandrian weapons).

The only scenario where Crafted gear would be better is if the relic gear had Skill/Spell Speed on jobs that dislike it. Regardless, Crafted gear lasts throughout the entire tier as people continuously opt to purchase it, though sales typically drop once Normal Mode is unlocked. Having Relic Armor obtainable immediately, speeds up this process, which means within a month or so, crafters have much less options when it comes to making a profit.

This is assuming the relic set takes less than a month to get. You'd also have to keep in mind that Crafted gear would be getting augmented versions in the odd-numbered patches (See: 4.3, i350>i360 augmentation).

It takes five weeks to obtain a full set of left side gear from Normal Mode; seven if you include the Crystalloid. Even Pagos, grind-y as it were didn't take that long. Considering the devs have already mentioned using Anemos as their template, we can assume Pyros' grind will be considerably reduced. Keep in mind, acquiring a second relic piece is already significantly faster since you aren't waiting for information to be released nor do you have to level.

Considering this suggestion is too late to be properly applied to Pyros (or Eureka in general), it'd be pointless to completely focus on how it'd be with the Anemos way of grinding it.

That tomestone weapon comes at a cost: 1,000 tomes which could be otherwise put towards your gear upgrades. A relic, meanwhile, costs nothing except time. And as noted above, even with a grind longer than Anemos, it becomes easier on subsequent attempts. Basically, the relic would need to take much longer than three weeks or using your tomes on a weapon would simply be a complete waste.

The tomestone would still have 5 iLvls over both the i385 and the i395 versions of the relic (the latter when augmenting the tomestone weapon). While you'd be able to augment the relic 1 floor before the one that drops Scaevan Esters, The time it'd take to get the relic should be enough for the more dedicated raiders to get one. Not to mention that the 4.5 primal weapon would be 5 iLvls above the base tomestone weapon.
Also, this one can easily be turned around: Why grind for a relic when you could just get a tomestone weapon?

Slightly stronger with no restriction. I can only obtain one piece of gear from the 24 man each week, whereas I can grind to my hearts content should I choose. By the time 4.3 rolled around, I had full relic sets for multiple jobs. Even if we assume Pyros' grind will be longer than Anemos, it will still render 24 man loot drops obsolete.

You're too focused on the way Eureka works, when XIV has had relic grind before Eureka (even if this is the first one to have relic armor). Besides, have you ever run the 24-man raid to upgrade pieces on your main job?

I agree, which is what Heavensward did. You don't accomplish this by invalidating every other means of progression or severely diminishing their relevancy. Another factor not considered is how this impacts queues. People are far less likely to continuously spam Normal Mode or farm Suzaku EX when they can grind Eureka for a better reward. Unless, of course, the design is so abysmal, no one wants to bother. I don't think we should hope for another poor render of Eureka just to keep alternative content relevant.

And that's how the grind should be. The way SE forced the relic grind into its own instance was a mistake, and I sure hope the 5.x relic will go back to how things were in ARR/HW.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

We also have both the HW and ARR relic grinds, since a suggestion like this couldn't be properly developed for during this expansion. Make it so a player who grinds regularly will be able to obtain both the weapon and the set about 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch. The average person would get it shortly before said patch, while the crazy-no-life-grinding player would get it earlier than that (but really, should you even balance things with that last one in mind?) That should be enough of a grind for players to decide whether they want to go for it, or take one of the less grindy alternatives.
As for the 4.5 primal, it'd drop i395 weapons anyway (See: i365 Zurvanite weapons, i375 Alexandrian weapons).

A grind lasting nearly the whole length of an even numbered patch wouldn't be an issue, no. That wasn't your initial argument though. You're moving the goal posts.

This is assuming the relic set takes less than a month to get. You'd also have to keep in mind that Crafted gear would be getting augmented versions in the odd-numbered patches (See: 4.3, i350>i360 augmentation).

Outside the arduous grind of the Identifiable Ore step, the relic has never taken longer than a month unless one opts to progress at a very casual pace. Furthermore, you're neglecting odd numbered patches are intended for catch up purposes. It's entirely different to release relic armor that will directly compete with new brand crafted and normal mode gear. This directly pulls people away from queues and purchasing crafted gear outside hardcore raiders.

The tomestone would still have 5 iLvls over both the i385 and the i395 versions of the relic (the latter when augmenting the tomestone weapon). While you'd be able to augment the relic 1 floor before the one that drops Scaevan Esters, The time it'd take to get the relic should be enough for the more dedicated raiders to get one. Not to mention that the 4.5 primal weapon would be 5 iLvls above the base tomestone weapon.
Also, this one can easily be turned around: Why grind for a relic when you could just get a tomestone weapon?

At the cost of equipment. If the relic releases at the same time, per your original argument, this makes the tome weapon poor value. It takes three weeks worth of tomes and sets you back on further gear progression whereas the relic offers no such hindrance. Likewise, being able to increase the relic to i395 invalidates the odd numbered Primal before it even releases. Even with your aforementioned Zurvan example, the i270 step released with him, not before.

Glamour. That has always been the main incentive for the relics. As I outline later on, even in Heavensward, the relic only ever matched the tome weapon in odd patches not even.

You're too focused on the way Eureka works, when XIV has had relic grind before Eureka (even if this is the first one to have relic armor). Besides, have you ever run the 24-man raid to upgrade pieces on your main job?

XIV never had a relic armor grind before, thus Eureka is our only frame of reference. Regardless, I'm not the target audience for 24-man raids. At least not on my main. It's intended purpose has generally been for alt jobs. People will be far less inclined to run it repeatedly for one week drops if they can obtain relic armor... which has no limitation. Granted, this is less an issue if it releases later into the patch.

And that's how the grind should be. The way SE forced the relic grind into its own instance was a mistake, and I sure hope the 5.x relic will go back to how things were in ARR/HW.

And yet, that still contradicts your argument. The i210 step was met with wide spread criticism for being too grind-y, which is the only time the relic held the same ilvl to raids weapon; the i240 step released in 3.3, thus impacted nothing, and the i275 step you mentioned came in 3.5a, five weeks after Zurvan EX. Therefore, only the i270 step competed with any Primal (Zurvan). And only during the last major patch of Heavenswards. If they go back to HW... you'll have this precise same formula in terms of ilvl progression. In fact, let's look at the Midas tier.

Raid weapon: i245
Tome weapon: i230 (i240 augmented)
Relic: i230 (released five weeks later)
Sephirot: i220

The above isn't what you proposed in your initial rebuttal. You wanted relics released at roughly the same time whereas in Heavensward, Sephirot and crafted/normal gear went unopposed for five weeks before you could even start the relic step.

[Nezerius]

A grind lasting nearly the whole length of an even numbered patch wouldn't be an issue, no. That wasn't your initial argument though. You're moving the goal posts.

My initial reply to your list even stated that it'd depend on how much of a grind it'd be. Just because I didn't go into specifics then doesn't mean I'm moving the goal posts. But feel free to think that I have.

Outside the arduous grind of the Identifiable Ore step, the relic has never taken longer than a month unless one opts to progress at a very casual pace. Furthermore, you're neglecting odd numbered patches are intended for catch up purposes. It's entirely different to release relic armor that will directly compete with new brand crafted and normal mode gear. This directly pulls people away from queues and purchasing crafted gear outside hardcore raiders.

Yes, I'm sure every player will go on a month+ grind to get their relic armor, which, I might add, would be for one job. Players who don't go for the grind would still buy the crafted gear if they want to gear up faster. Players who grind for the relic armor, but also want to gear up alts, could also still be buying crafted armor.

At the cost of equipment. If the relic releases at the same time, per your original argument, this makes the tome weapon poor value. It takes three weeks worth of tomes and sets you back on further gear progression whereas the relic offers no such hindrance. Likewise, being able to increase the relic to i395 invalidates the odd numbered Primal before it even releases. Even with your aforementioned Zurvan example, the i270 step released with him, not before.

Raiders would likely be obtaining their base tomestone weapons faster than the ones getting the relic (due to getting the tomestone drop). The base relic would still be i385 (5 iLvls lower than the base tomestone weapon), but you seemed to have skipped over that part of my post. The i395 version is only obtained after actually obtaining the i385 version.
I'd also like to remind you that the Animus weapon was added in 2.2, along with Leviathan EX. The Animus weapon was i100 while the base Leviathan weapon was i95, which could only be upgraded to i100 by obtaining a rare drop. Somehow, this didn't invalidate Leviathan at all, since I still saw people going for those weapons back then.

Glamour. That has always been the main incentive for the relics. As I outline later on, even in Heavensward, the relic only ever matched the tome weapon in odd patches not even.

First of all, the +1 relic would like to have a word with you (pre-Allagan iLvl buff). Second, glamour really shouldn't be the main incentive. It should only be part of the incentive to grind for it.

XIV never had a relic armor grind before, thus Eureka is our only frame of reference. Regardless, I'm not the target audience for 24-man raids. At least not on my main. It's intended purpose has generally been for alt jobs. People will be far less inclined to run it repeatedly for one week drops if they can obtain relic armor... which has no limitation. Granted, this is less an issue if it releases later into the patch.

Just because XIV has never had relic armor before, doesn't mean that the game hasn't had relic grinds before. Take the relic weapon grind, replace it with a hat and you have a relic armor grind. I'd also like to point out that I mentioned the 24-man raid being a good way to get gear on alts (because few are crazy enough to grind for multiple relic sets), It's also another option for players who don't like the grind, but the idea of those people existing seems to be going over your head.

And yet, that still contradicts your argument. The i210 step was met with wide spread criticism for being too grind-y

So what? Let them complain. If they can't handle the grind, then there'll be less grindy options to get a weapon/gear. And as a bonus, primal/crafted/normal raid gear isn't invalidated!

The above isn't what you proposed in your initial rebuttal. You wanted relics released at roughly the same time whereas in Heavensward, Sephirot and crafted/normal gear went unopposed for five weeks before you could even start the relic step.

And this is a good idea how? Just let players grind right away. There's going to be plenty of players who will find it too much of a grind, who will then go with the other options.

But at the end of the day, we're better off agreeing to disagree. You prefer relics being a glamour stick, while I'd prefer relics being more than that.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

My initial reply to your list even stated that it'd depend on how much of a grind it'd be. Just because I didn't go into specifics then doesn't mean I'm moving the goal posts. But feel free to think that I have.

Your initial reply cited wanting the relic to release at the same time as the raid tier. You go on to mention wanting it to be like Heavensward. This never occurred, as demonstrated in my last response.

Yes, I'm sure every player will go on a month+ grind to get their relic armor, which, I might add, would be for one job. Players who don't go for the grind would still buy the crafted gear if they want to gear up faster. Players who grind for the relic armor, but also want to gear up alts, could also still be buying crafted armor.

I simply said the relic has never taken longer than a month outside extremely grind steps they ultimately did away with, excluding Pagos. Our only example of relic armor thus far is Anemos, which was considerably faster. Given the trajectory Stormblood has followed as a whole, it likely wouldn't be longer than a couple weeks. This does invalidate crafted and normal mode. The more gear alternatives added, the more inclined people are to wait for better things. If people know they can get a full relic set sans the weapon in three weeks. They're less likely to bother with purchasing one or farming Normal Mode. Now if you want to argue for relic armor that takes well beyond a month or releases 5-6 weeks thereafter... like Heavensward. It's another argument entirely.

Raiders would likely be obtaining their base tomestone weapons faster than the ones getting the relic (due to getting the tomestone drop). The base relic would still be i385 (5 iLvls lower than the base tomestone weapon), but you seemed to have skipped over that part of my post. The i395 version is only obtained after actually obtaining the i385 version.
I'd also like to remind you that the Animus weapon was added in 2.2, along with Leviathan EX. The Animus weapon was i100 while the base Leviathan weapon was i95, which could only be upgraded to i100 by obtaining a rare drop. Somehow, this didn't invalidate Leviathan at all, since I still saw people going for those weapons back then.

I did no such thing. You're choosing to ignore what I said. There is a cost with the tome weapon. Borrowing the Aether Oil step for example sake. It is far more efficient use of tomes to spend five weeks or less working on the relic, purchasing both your body/legs and another piece than spending them on a five ilvl increase. This renders the tome weapon useless, especially if the relic has more materia slots or customizable stats. The sole exception would be if it had trash stats like no Crit for Bard. The only reason the tome weapon has any value now is due to it being the only means of obtaining a weapon close to the raid weapon. This isn't inherently a problem... if the relic either has a longer grind or doesn't release with the tier itself. Five weeks isn't bad, but you could easily hasten the Aether Oil process through simply grinding dungeons for a week.

Just because XIV has never had relic armor before, doesn't mean that the game hasn't had relic grinds before. Take the relic weapon grind, replace it with a hat and you have a relic armor grind. I'd also like to point out that I mentioned the 24-man raid being a good way to get gear on alts (because few are crazy enough to grind for multiple relic sets), It's also another option for players who don't like the grind, but the idea of those people existing seems to be going over your head.

I mean if you want the precise same grind for each individual piece, by all means. People tend to complain... which leads to easier and easier alternatives. It's incredibly unlikely the devs would maintain the same lengthily grind for each piece as that slows progression to a halt. But it wouldn't impact anything as it'll take forever. I'll grant you that. Ironically, it wouldn't meet your demand to be more than glamour seeing as by the time you finish... the next patch will be out. So I don't exactly see the argument here.

So what? Let them complain. If they can't handle the grind, then there'll be less grindy options to get a weapon/gear. And as a bonus, primal/crafted/normal raid gear isn't invalidated!

Yes, let's bring back the step nobody liked. Raiders hated it because their gear wasn't even BiS despite it being significantly harder to obtain. And casuals hated it because the grind took forever—to the point the relic ultimately accomplished nothing. There's a reason they moved away from this.

And this is a good idea how? Just let players grind right away. There's going to be plenty of players who will find it too much of a grind, who will then go with the other options.

But at the end of the day, we're better off agreeing to disagree. You prefer relics being a glamour stick, while I'd prefer relics being more than that.

And there are plenty more who won't. Bear in mind, people too lazy to grind and aren't inclined to make gil either. Delaying the relic has always been to allow crafters a chance to sell new gear and to keep Normal Mode as the focus. I don't want the relic to be a glamour stick, but I also don't want it ruining my craft markets.

If you want an insanely long grind just so the relic can release immediately. Well, given past history... you're a very small minority. HW did things fine from Midas onward because no, I do not believe the relic should match the raid weapon until near the end of the expansion.

[Nezerius]

Your initial reply cited wanting the relic to release at the same time as the raid tier. You go on to mention wanting it to be like Heavensward. This never occurred, as demonstrated in my last response.

Wanting the grind to be like Heavensward =/= wanting it to be exactly like Heavensward. You completely missed the point, since I was talking about the fact that the grind shouldn't be limited to one zone (Eureka). My reply even goes on saying "The way SE forced the relic grind into its own instance was a mistake"

Now if you want to argue for relic armor that takes well beyond a month or releases 5-6 weeks thereafter... like Heavensward. It's another argument entirely.

Which is exactly what I'm arguing for? You do know that the time period between an even-numbered and and odd-numbered patch is 3,5-4 months, right? (Referring to this part of my posts: "Make it so a player who grinds regularly will be able to obtain both the weapon and the set about 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch.")

I did no such thing. You're choosing to ignore what I said. There is a cost with the tome weapon. Borrowing the Aether Oil step for example sake. It is far more efficient use of tomes to spend five weeks or less working on the relic, purchasing both your body/legs and another piece than spending them on a five ilvl increase. This renders the tome weapon useless, especially if the relic has more materia slots or customizable stats. The sole exception would be if it had trash stats like no Crit for Bard. The only reason the tome weapon has any value now is due to it being the only means of obtaining a weapon close to the raid weapon. This isn't inherently a problem... if the relic either has a longer grind or doesn't release with the tier itself. Five weeks isn't bad, but you could easily hasten the Aether Oil process through simply grinding dungeons for a week.

Except the grind would be longer than 5 weeks, and the relic would still be 5 iLvls below the tomestone weapons. Reminder that there's 14 to 16 weeks in 3,5-4 months.

I mean if you want the precise same grind for each individual piece, by all means. People tend to complain... which leads to easier and easier alternatives. It's incredibly unlikely the devs would maintain the same lengthily grind for each piece as that slows progression to a halt. But it wouldn't impact anything as it'll take forever. I'll grant you that. Ironically, it wouldn't meet your demand to be more than glamour seeing as by the time you finish... the next patch will be out. So I don't exactly see the argument here.

I'm just saying that the relic armor isn't some unique and special thing that can be exempt from other examples of grinds that happened before its introduction. Besides, one of my posts even stated that players regularly grinding it would obtain it 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch (which, in essence, is "the next patch", after the even-numbered one).

Yes, let's bring back the step nobody liked. Raiders hated it because their gear wasn't even BiS despite it being significantly harder to obtain. And casuals hated it because the grind took forever—to the point the relic ultimately accomplished nothing. There's a reason they moved away from this.

Raiders already have a faster alternative to get better gear, so they're not even the target audience of relic weapons/armor to begin with. Casuals (taking the definition of players who don't play much), shouldn't be the target audience either. It should be for the players that enjoy grinding for a useful reward (which it would be, if they can obtain one job's relics around the halfway point of a patch cycle).

And there are plenty more who won't. Bear in mind, people too lazy to grind and aren't inclined to make gil either. Delaying the relic has always been to allow crafters a chance to sell new gear and to keep Normal Mode as the focus. I don't want the relic to be a glamour stick, but I also don't want it ruining my craft markets.

The delay really isn't all that needed anymore, considering how they changed it so crafted DoW/M sets can be easily HQed on day 1 of the patch. Casuals, that don't like the time commitment of the relic grind nor have the gil for crafted gear, would still go with normal mode gear.

If you want an insanely long grind just so the relic can release immediately. Well, given past history... you're a very small minority. HW did things fine from Midas onward because no, I do not believe the relic should match the raid weapon until near the end of the expansion.

I'd hardly call a 3-4 month grind insane, if you can enjoy the rewards for another 3-4 months after.

[Wijnand]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

The best weapons in FFXI are relics. The Bosses in Escha zones drop some freebie weapons that count as Raid weapons but are no where near as powerful as the relics or as what FFXI calls them "R.E.M.A" weapons.

Having the Relics/Eurekan weapons at the same ilvl as Raid weapons, gives all players something to progress and log in for. Reducing it as a glamour item killed it.

Not everyone likes to raid. Just like not everyone likes to do Relics/Eureka. Raiders have something to do every week. Give the casuals something to do as well, progression wise that is actually worth the time doing not just for glamour.

It is obvious you haven't raided before. And it is really hard to explain to you why people would be against this so much but lets give it a shot.

1.) Getting to O12S requires for some groups weeks/months
2.) it can take 1-8 weeks to get your relic weapon once you hit that phase.
3.) you cannot "grind" weapons out until 3 weeks before the new patch launch.

Savage is meant for people who want to push their skills to the limits and to do content designed for people with determination and the will to learn a set of scripted fights. Your entirely entitled to not ever step foot in any savage. However you can also understand there has to be a reward for doing savage. in ARR we had story gated behind it and it was a valid concern why people didn't like that so we got the normal mode for raids.

That leaves us with weapons, in the end you do not need a weapon that is the same if you don't raid. And giving people who want to play casually the best weapons the game has to offer that can take 10,000 whatevers to gather still removes any real incentive to learn a fight deal with people you don't like and be stressed over wiping countless times.

There have been weeks where i had 0 to show with my static when we were working on O8S. adding any grindy weapon no matter how long would kill most people's need to learn that fight. You haven't given much argument on why you need a bigger stick for what your doing.Nothing in the casual world cannot be done with a 380 weapon right now. The only reason you could want a 405 relic out of the gate is cause you want to skip steps.

It is entirely fine and I respect that viewpoint but also understand there has to be balance in this game. And it cannot be balanced that way. I know I won't raid anymore if i can get a equal relic weapon cause that is consistent grinding and i will get it consistently (unless its that pit pagos). Eventually in 4.5.5 relic will be the same as the savage weapon like always.