Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

[Nezerius]

You can get your eureka weapon in a few days if you're crazy enough.

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".

And as already said by Whiskey and Cassandra, gear is not very relevant for your numbers if you don't know your job's rotation and how to adapt to different encounters. I've seen ilvl 380+ players in expert roulettes being outdpsed by healers and tanks. Gear won't help those players.

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

[HyoMinPark]

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

[Tint]

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

Again I am fine with the raidgear is BiS, but the relic should be a step above of the tomeweapon. Having the best gear (or better gear) of course is not necessary to clear the easier content, but it is necessary to justify the long relic grind (wich gets longer and longer with every added step).

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.
I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

[Lumis_Arvalo]

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".!

I know a number of people who had their first elemental weapon within a week of Pagos dropping. I'll agree that's not the "norm", but let's not act like these people don't exist.

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

So you want a weapon that was designed to be for casual players to grind out over time to be gated behind items that come from raid content, and thus be for raiders? That's... really dumb. That's not what the relic is supposed to be in this game. If that's how it was in FFXI and you enjoyed that, then go back to FFXI. That system sounds terrible for a game like this.

[whiskeybravo]

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

I think it's hard to say whether it takes more time or effort for relic grinds. I mean, I'm not a "hardcore" raider, it took my group like 6 weeks, raiding 9ish hours per week, to finally down 11s and move on to M+F. Average groups are still on 11s after nearly 8 weeks. So you got 50ish hours worth of time in one, put 50 hours in the other and it's probably about the same results, and of course there's hardcore types on both sides that will get it done much faster. Overall I'd lean towards more time and effort being required for raid rewards, there's too many factors outside the content itself that have no equivalent in a relic grind. From building and maintaining a raid group to dealing with schedule conflicts, egos, strategies, performance, etc etc

[RyoXander]

I know a number of people who had their first elemental weapon within a week of Pagos dropping. I'll agree that's not the "norm", but let's not act like these people don't exist.

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.



So you want a weapon that was designed to be for casual players to grind out over time to be gated behind items that come from raid content, and thus be for raiders? That's... really dumb. That's not what the relic is supposed to be in this game. If that's how it was in FFXI and you enjoyed that, then go back to FFXI. That system sounds terrible for a game like this.

There you go again with the idiotic "go play FFXI if you love it so much" mentality just because someone suggest something from said game.
There are already plenty of weapons you can get if you are not committed to raiding. Coincidentally, if you're not into raids, then why do you even need/want such a strong weapon? There is no need for it. The relic system in this game makes no sense to me.

[Nihility]

relic is messed up this whole expansion because Eureka was fumbled so badly. It will keep upgrading and eventually be the best while tomestone gear will always get outdated