Tank Stance Redesign

[kordhaldrum]

I like this sugestions =)

What I would really like is a rework so tanks need to dps less and tank more. But this will never happen and we always going "DPS" path.

Right now tank stance is so "useless"
If they want us to focus so much in DPS, they could just make dps stance passive, and make tank stance a 30s buff without or with less dps penalty, with 90/120s CD. LOL

[ArianeEwah]

An actual difference of game play between the stance.

Paladin somewhat has that with shield swipe (i'd reduce the CD to 5s max). That's one extra thing to do while tanking.

Something similar on the other job would be welcomed.

While I agree with your wish to add additional gimmicks for each job, it's hard to archieve. We had this in HW with DRK's parry procs, but they also increased DRK's DPS, so they had to MT. If you are going to lower the CD of Shield Swipe, not only you have to manage your oGCD usage way harder (esp. during Req. Holy Spirit window), but also force PLD into MT position just like DRK in HW. So far, there isn't any encounter in which you can get shield procs every 5 seconds without being MT.

As for more active forms of mitigation... I guess Sheltron counts as such... still feels kinda off because it has a 10s duration.

At least WAR has this kinda gimmick with their tank stance, (Inner Beast) WAR stances in general appear to be best designed right now.

I'll suggest more unique tank stances at the very least, something that might heavily play into the mechanics of the particular job and theme. Paladin and Dark Knight could both have some interesting stuff regarding this.

I tried to achieve that with my suggestions, but at the same time I didn't want to go into extreme. e.g. just increasing block rate for PLD 'cause it's still a random proc mechanic and doesn't affect crit hits. Additionally, it might prove less effective than a flat mitigation if PLD's got an older shield, thus weaker block strength.

Another idea was, (DRK) tank stance could reduce incoming damage by 50% and inflict additional 30% of incoming as DoT on them, but that would increase the burden on healers even further once the DoTs stack up.

Only tangentially related, but I always thought it would be cool if going into Sword Oath put your shield away and swapped out your shield based abilities for more offensive ones.

Do you think of something like WARs Beast Gauge actions which change once you switch stances?

[Tint]

Since tank stances are barely used anyway and in no way will people ever start using them when it means they lose dps, I think they should just get rid of these stances.

Add the passive defense as a trait wich is always active, reduced damage for PLD and DRK, additional HP and healbuff for WAR.

Buff enmity multipliers on all enmity skills to balance out the missing stance and let the enmity combo apply a buff for X seconds wich increases enmity for all skills.

To prevent a complete rework for WAR he keeps his 2 stances, but the only difference between them is that Defiance will give you acces to selfheals and Inner Beast, while Deliverance has stronger attacks and Fell Cleave.

[Eloah]

I'd need to look over this more thoroughly, but, personally, I wouldn't use traits as an on/off switch.

[Thela]

The whole tank stance system is archaic design anyway. If they should finally decide to get rid of them next expansion, good riddance i say. Tune tanks to do whatever dps they feel they should do, 60-75% or so of a dps job, make auto attacks more threatening and implement some sort of active mitigation to mitigate this higher dmg intake outside only mitigating a TB every few minutes. Technically we already have a working system in place in form of Sheltron/TBN/IB. But would have to be changed to be used much more frequently (and scaled down in effect)

[ArianeEwah]

Since tank stances are barely used anyway and in no way will people ever start using them when it means they lose dps, I think they should just get rid of these stances.

Add the passive defense as a trait wich is always active, reduced damage for PLD and DRK, additional HP and healbuff for WAR.[...]

I had this thought once, too. But I came to the conclusion that would conflict with the meaning of tank stance, or it must get tuned down the effect it would hardly make any difference. That would just increase the burden on healers if they get bad tanks.

I just think tank stance are pretty awkward. They are available once you get your job (level 30) in dungeons you could easily tank without tank stance before and after. In solo content they provide nothing, in fact they drag on the fight by about 20% while you take 20% less damage... while on the other hand, DPS stance increases damage dealt by 10%, thus you need about 10% less time to kill things.
In dungeons (4 man content) tank stance is "somewhat" helpful, but at the same time it is not. New tanks can compensate for their low gear, but veterans (snyced tanks) can actually pull pretty big numbers and speed up the run without it.
"The faster the enemy dies the less damage they deal."

As you and others have already stated: tank stance is not needed for current nor old content. But would it be bad to make it more comfortable, interessting, or maybe even desireable at some point?

Why did I chose such numbers in OP anyway? Because I thought if DPS stance increases tank DPS by ~10% without any drawback, then tank stance should decrease damage taken by ~15%.

e.g. as PLD if you feel more comfortable to use Shield Oath for the next 5s, you can activate it, take the big hit, and turn it off afterwards. You get those 600 MP from your Roit Blade or Sheltron proc anyway. You just lose 2-3 bonus AA from Sword Oath.

I wanna see flexible, and more exciting stance play, but not "I chose this stance and stay in it".

[Acidblood]

Definitely an improvement (though ultimately, I'd like to see the removal of tank stances, at least from PLD and DRK, with mitigation being more active / interactive)

If stances are to exist though, a few things to add:
1. Removal of 'enmity' combo (or at least reworked to be frequently useful*), with 'extra enmity' from basic attacks** instead tied to stance... not sure how this would work prior to level 30, maybe being in 'DPS stance' removes the enmity modifier (as opposed to 'tank stance' adding it).
2. PLD Shield Oath also boosts Bulwark block rate to +80%, making block rate 100% while Bulwark is active.

* Would also be nice if each tank was a bit different in their combos (as opposed to them always having 3-part Enmity + 3-part DPS).
** By 'basic attacks' I mean Rage of Halone, Power Slash, Butchers Block, etc. … Flash, Shield Lob, Unleash, Unmend, Overpower, Tomahawk, etc. would always have 'increased enmity' regardless of stance.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

If I take an other game as exemple like Warcraft, back in the Lich King expansion... As far as I remember, Tank was forced to use Tank stance. The damage of bosses was too damn high to let a tank in Dps stance and further more it was a huge mistake to make it like this cause of specialized class.

Now if we look into Ff14, The mitigation that we gain through the Tank stance is huge. But the cost is terrible in term of damage loss.
I think of something like removing Dps stance, removing the damage loss in tank stance but lower the mitigation to maybe 10%? Of course it's only an Idea

[Bourne_Endeavor]

While I fancy the idea, unfortunately, Tank Stance will always be considered obsolete, unless the devs radically change the battle system. There simply isn't enough outgoing damage to warrant consistent mitigation; not helped by the fact lethal attacks are 100% predictable. No amount of incentivizing Tank Stance will make it relevant. It's frustrating to hear Yoshida lament how Warriors won't use Defiance or Healer DPS isn't expected. Make content where we care less about damage then and we'll actually focus less on it. Ultimate is a perfect example of this. Putting aside the difficulty, it's actually the sheer frequency of damage that forces Tank Stance in more situations than any other content. There is a risk going into DPS at inopportune moments. Bring that risk over on a smaller scale and people will use Tank Stance. But when Immunity through every major buster and have Vengeance up for other bigger hits. Well, what do I need Defiance for?

[Grimoire-M]

If you want to stop Tanks sitting in DPS stance as a main tank, you have to attack their aggro generation in DPS stance. Removing their aggro combo isn't the solution. You basically have to make their DPS stance give them permanent Diversion while its on plus add a Lucid Dreaming aggro dump when you swap, while removing Shirk and disabling Provoke/Ultimatum during it in order to kill circle shirking but restore its intended behavior. This would heavily discourage sitting in DPS stance for too long as a main tank (which would take a LOT of aggro combos and party effort to enable) and make it incredibly difficult to maintain hate against your party. Only a shadewalker NIN could realistically keep you ahead of the group for any period, likely only for burst windows. If you then add ways to get around this, such as making PLD's DPS penalty only apply to physical damage, making Dark Arts ignore the Grit penalty entirely, and applying Unchained for free during the Berserk window, then that would minimize the value of this ability.

The only tank this wouldn't work for is DRK currently, meaning they'd likely have to see Grit and Darkside reworked to be mutually exclusive like the other two tanks. Reducing Grit's damage penalty to 5% in the process would be a minor nerf but approximate this nicely, but the major issue would be all of the Darkside/Grit specific interactions that would have to be readdressed. All in all it would likely be a rework from the ground up at that point, which some DRKs are for, though I'd hope they could retain as much of the current kit as possible (aside from Blood imo).

I feel that the damage penalty in tank stance should be reduced, not removed. I'd also prefer it if Sword Oath was more than 'here's a bunch of auto attack potency'. Give PLD something to care about in sword oath, even if it's just a DPS version of Shield Swipe.

I do feel that Tanks would have to get something added to their aggro combos to make them more useful again too. I'd say bring back the debuff combos, but don't make them mutually exclusive.Either use the same debuff across all of them, or add two debuffs per tank, all of which are present on the third hits. So DRK gets Addle + Damage Down, PLD gets Feint + Damage Down, and WAR gets Addle + Feint, all of which when combined give you all three of the former tank debuffs from HW/ARR, no matter which pair you bring.