Non-binary option for characters, please?

[Iscah]

My simple understanding of how the terms work is that when you need to differentiate between a person's biological sex and mental gender, you use those terms and they have separate meanings. But in other contexts, where you don't need that distinction, they can mean the same thing. Possibly because "gender" is seen as a more 'polite' word than "sex".

I have a 1964 Oxford dictionary (it's wonderful for looking up the obscure words the game likes to throw at us) and it defines gender as: "grammatical classification (or one of the two, or three, classes) of objects roughly corresponding to the two sexes & sexlessness (masculine, feminine & neuter; see also common(1), epicene), (of nouns and pronouns) property of belonging to such class, (of adj.) appropriate form for accompanying a noun of any such class; (joc.) sex."

Meanwhile, the definition of sex is "being male or female or hermaphrodite" (plus a lot of phrase examples I won't type out, but that's the core of it).

So at that point in time, gender is a grammatical concept, equateable to but not primarily used with the same meaning as sex (except as a 'jocular' term - "mirthful or humorous" by the same dictionary's definition!). Which makes sense for things like gendered nouns, which have a gender but not a sex.

It also makes sense that once you need to be able to define someone's mental perception of their sex as separate to their physical form, that grammatical concept of gender can be repurposed for that meaning. "This person's gender is feminine, she should be referred to with female pronouns." (Don't quote me on that, I'm just guessing. It's too late at night here to keep researching.)

[Sigma-Astra]

Yet you decided to be personally offended that I posted anything and when you added nothing to the conversation for that entire page of the thread. My point, since you didn't actually read it was that this thread is troll bait, and was definitely straying off topic.

One does not have to be personally offended to call someone out for being utterly insane and ridiculous with their logic, namely you. I mean, if you want to keep insulting yourself, by all means, don't let me tell you otherwise.

You constantly act like you're this philosophical, world traveled genius on the forums, and sadly, you're not.

[kikix12]

Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist..

So this is where your ignorance lies. At least it had a reason...surprise surprise.

I'll give you three phrases regarding a trans person.

"Mr. Jack's sex at birth was that of a woman. His gender was always that of a man though."
This phrase is completely clear and correct under current meanings of the words.

"Mr. Jack's sex at birth was that of a woman. His sex was always that of a man though."
This phrase is partially correct. Second instance of "sex" is used incorrectly however. Then there's the fact of it being used twice in a row saying two opposite things. It's not relevant here because the second use was incorrect to begin with.

"Mr. Jack's gender at birth was that of a woman. His gender was always that of a man though."
Here we have an error as well...but not in use of words. The word gender is used correctly both times. The error is more of a matter of style. Repeating the use of the same word in consecutive sentences (or within one sentence) was always a problem that is to be avoided. Here we have also another problem in that the word is used in two related, but separate contexts...which are opposite of each other. That makes this phrase correct on the meaning...but something you'd get an F for at school.

But we can fix that very easily.
"Mr. Jack's gender at birth was that of a woman. His gender mentally was always that of a man though."
And voila. Problem solved, except that it still looks so-so with the word "gender" repeated in consecutive phrases. However since the word "mentally" was added, the issue of misconception is solved because now not only first sentence have context (at birth), but the second one have as well (mentally). Something the phrases above lacked.


Transgender people are proof of there being a possibility of someone having two genders that are different from one another (mental and biological)...or of there being a person whose sex and gender are not the same. Both of these statements are correct. They merely state the same thing in two different ways. You know...the whole purpose of synonyms existing.

Possibly because "gender" is seen as a more 'polite' word than "sex".

I think it's less a matter of it being "polite", more a matter of it having a second meaning that is considered taboo. If public use of the other meaning of that word did not risk fine for obscenity, sharp looks and possibly being raped...it would be used a lot more often even outside scientific and medical circles.

[Altera]

I also wonder if soon people wants SE to remove /cheer and /clap emote like some universitys and football arenas in UK has banned people from cheering on their kids at football or clapping at campus and instead use jazzhands.

Seriously if gender issues is such a huge problem for the young people these days, I would love to trade their cushy life and they could have mine.

This is a video game. When you hit the log in button, you leave your personal issues/preferences/ideology/problems or whatever there. Do not bring them into Eorzea.
Learn to accept things in life doesn't always cater to your needs. I have, otherwise I would go insane.

[Iscah]

I think it's less a matter of it being "polite", more a matter of it having a second meaning that is considered taboo.

That's what I meant.

Interestingly it doesn't seem to have that definition in the 1964 dictionary - and not because they didn't want to talk about it, it's just a separate entry.

But we can fix that very easily.
"Mr. Jack's gender at birth was that of a woman. His gender mentally was always that of a man though."
And voila. Problem solved, except that it still looks so-so with the word "gender" repeated in consecutive phrases. However since the word "mentally" was added, the issue of misconception is solved because now not only first sentence have context (at birth), but the second one have as well (mentally). Something the phrases above lacked.

I still don't think that's correct - or ideal at any rate. That's exactly when you use "sex" and "gender" as separate terms with different meanings, even if they can be interchangeable elsewhere.

[swiss_Momo]

wew, this thread really needs to be nuked with another calamity...

... Yeah, I think we do have quite a different point of view on that, too. Considering you just dropped an insult on my spouse and loads of people like them.
If they have a problem, it's intolerant people insisting they have a problem.
Trans isn't even so cut and dry as "I want to be the opposite sex", but frankly, I don't feel like attempting to be your educator.

oh please, it's called Gender Identity Disorder for a reason. Also excuse me if I might not fully grasp all these oh so complicated nuances because I am native in one of those oh so silly and inappropriate language that has only one word for sex and gender, but: isn't it the whole "gender is just a social construct" rhetoric that is transphobic as f? Or how can my GID and dysphoria be real if gender isn't real?

[ChiefDork]

I can already anticipate how “controversial” and “SJW” this post will be received by some as (God, when society in about 100 years from now looks back on this and how the word “SJW” is used as a slur for people who ask for more options of self expression, they’ll facepalm so hard.), but as a non-binary tax and sub-paying adult human, would there be any way you could (Square, that is) implement a gender neutral option, maybe if not on the character creation screen, then tucked away in the settings somewhere? (To avoid offending many of those who cry at the sight of *gasp* more than 2 genders!)

I look forward to the original remarks about Attack Helicopters and god knows what else being used as an argument against more options, but to the MANY gender-nonconforming players of this game (I’m sure you’ve all seen how many LGBT* FC’s there are), even just having one catch-all option outside of the gender binary would be so wonderful. I spend an ungodly amount of money on Fantasia due to being pretty fed up of being referred to as male or female constantly in basically every cutscene. (I probably shouldn’t have said that, you’re making a killing off me Square, I’ve probably funded all the expantions at this rate) What do you all think? Dangerous question to ask online, especially here, but I’ll risk it.

Why do people always have to drag their personal and political baggage into games? Why do you need a fantasy game to validate your life choices because you are insecure in the real world? Why don't you just enjoy the game for what it is instead of dragging everyone else into your mire of self loathing and doubt?

[Iscah]

Wouldn't a left handed Summoner hold the book in the right hand? Because ingame, the Summoner write with the feather right handed and use also the right hand for the spells, I think. Mhh, should check it out next time I log in....

Summoner keeps their spellbook in their right hand at all times, and writes in the book with their left hand when summoning.

[kikix12]

I still don't think that's correct - or ideal at any rate. That's exactly when you use "sex" and "gender" as separate terms with different meanings, even if they can be interchangeable elsewhere.

Its meaning is correct. Synonyms have that to them, that they are not selective.

However it is a stylistic error, at the very least. Under normal circumstances, any person with a suitable vocabulary should avoid making such phrases. Completely non-problematic alternatives are, for example:
"Mr. Jack's gender biologically was that of a woman, but mentally he always was a man."
"Mr. Jack's gender is biologically a woman and mentally a man."
"Mr. Jack's biological gender of a woman is different than the mental one."

It's all a matter of context. When using a multi-meaning word in an ambiguous manner, it is a good idea to provide context. There is no such need when using two words that are synonyms in one of the cases, but not the other, like "sex" for biological gender and simply "gender" for mental one. That is part of the reason why we use synonyms.

[Iscah]

Why do people always have to drag their personal and political baggage into games? Why do you need a fantasy game to validate your life choices because you are insecure in the real world? Why don't you just enjoy the game for what it is instead of dragging everyone else into your mire of self loathing and doubt?

Because perhaps it is something that will let them get more enjoyment out of the game?

Why does anybody ever ask for any additional features? New glamours or adjustments to the character creator? Because they want to build the character they have in mind and it's not available in the current options.

And they're not dragging you into anything. You wouldn't be forced to play as that gender if they hypothetically added it.