Non-binary option for characters, please?

[NanaWiloh]

I've come to talk with you again.

Cause a vision softly creeping.

[TaiyoShikasu]

Woke: Gender isn't real.

Broke: Eleven pages of "Lol two genders."

[kamenkuro]

Woke: Gender isn't real.

Broke: Eleven pages of "Lol two genders."

Scientifically speaking there are only 2 confirmed genders in humans. The lack of gender is not possible. The word gender is an interesting word, as folks seem to confuse what it's used for. Gender is primarily there to assign masculine and feminine traits upon things. This can be creatures or objects. To be gendered is to be put into a Male or female category based on characteristics ranging from the biological to the physical with biology being prioritized. The current fad of misconstruing the word to fit personal ideologies has been largely rebuffed by the populace at large. This has more or less caused those like yourself and OP to adopt a humorously overblown ego as this idea has been thrown around a number of internet echo chambers where this sentiment hasn't been rightly challenged. When presented with evidence or logic the discussion shuts down and turns into either derision or cold silence.

[TaiyoShikasu]

Scientifically speaking there are only 2 confirmed genders in humans. The lack of gender is not possible. The word gender is an interesting word, as folks seem to confuse what it's used for. Gender is primarily there to assign masculine and feminine traits upon things. This can be creatures or objects. To be gendered is to be put into a Male or female category based on characteristics ranging from the biological to the physical with biology being prioritized. The current fad of misconstruing the word to fit personal ideologies has been largely rebuffed by the populace at large. This has more or less caused those like yourself and OP to adopt a humorously overblown ego as this idea has been thrown around a number of internet echo chambers where this sentiment hasn't been rightly challenged. When presented with evidence or logic the discussion shuts down and turns into either derision or cold silence.

Sex refers to biology, anatomy, chromosomes and so forth. And the notion of only two sexes ignores intersex people who are an extreme minority to the point a lot of them don't even know they're biologically neither a man or woman until an autopsy is done. Gender refers to societal conditioning, men are the breadwinners, women raise children and so forth. Notions that have been challenged going back at least nearly two hundred years if not further.

So sex real as there is a material basis for it. Gender, not real as there is no material basis for it.

Screaming logic and evidence watch Ben Shapiro doesn't mean anything because words have meaning and the meaning of sex and gender are pretty concrete.

[Jandor]

Sex refers to biology, anatomy, chromosomes and so forth. And the notion of only two sexes ignores intersex people who are an extreme minority to the point a lot of them don't even know they're biologically neither a man or woman until an autopsy is done. Gender refers to societal conditioning, men are the breadwinners, women raise children and so forth. Notions that have been challenged going back at least nearly two hundred years if not further.

So sex real as there is a material basis for it. Gender, not real as there is no material basis for it.

Screaming logic and evidence watch Ben Shapiro doesn't mean anything because words have meaning and the meaning of sex and gender are pretty concrete.

Not that concrete, sex and gender were pretty interchangeable terms up until relatively recently.

There are only 2 sexes and intersex people don't change that. Intersex people have a medical condition, not a third sex.

[kamenkuro]

Sex refers to biology, anatomy, chromosomes and so forth. And the notion of only two sexes ignores intersex people who are an extreme minority to the point a lot of them don't even know they're biologically neither a man or woman until an autopsy is done. Gender refers to societal conditioning, men are the breadwinners, women raise children and so forth. Notions that have been challenged going back at least nearly two hundred years if not further.

So sex real as there is a material basis for it. Gender, not real as there is no material basis for it.

Screaming logic and evidence watch Ben Shapiro doesn't mean anything because words have meaning and the meaning of sex and gender are pretty concrete.

I literally just explained everything in clear and concise terms. Did you read what I wrote? Gender is very simple concept. Anatomy and chromosomes are just a branch of biology. There is no one devoid of sexual characteristics. You're not really making a compelling statement. You're simply attempting to rebuff mine with faulty talking points. Gender is very real. It's why can refer to ships as women or divide the complicated nuances of plant reproduction. To gender something you generally follow a set structure. Biology>physical make up in absence of biology>opinion. First would be a human, second would be a humanoid robot, and third would be a rubik's cube. The first has characteristics that are clearly defined. The second mimics these characteristics. The third has no defining traits and can be given a gender at someone's discretion because at that point it does not matter. Your idea of gender conditioning is a reference to social gender identities which is where we give actions gender. That also changes place to place and falls into the third category of gendered by opinion. Your inclusion of outliers also does not render gender moot. As these outliers are biologically 2 genders. This is not in any way a killing blow to the definition of gender. In fact it only proves further that biology is the main deciding factor in it's categorical duties.

Anyhow I rambled on. Lemme just summarize. Sex is exclusive to humans and any other biological entity. Gender is used to categorize everything and anything into either masculine or feminine with biology being prioritized in this categorization. To deny the idea of gender is to deny the idea of sex as they are almost identical. Gender simply covers a broader spectrum.

[TaiyoShikasu]

I literally just explained everything in clear and concise terms. Did you read what I wrote? Gender is very simple concept. Anatomy and chromosomes are just a branch of biology. There is no one devoid of sexual characteristics. You're not really making a compelling statement. You're simply attempting to rebuff mine with faulty talking points. Gender is very real. It's why can refer to ships as women or divide the complicated nuances of plant reproduction. To gender something you generally follow a set structure. Biology>physical make up in absence of biology>opinion. First would be a human, second would be a humanoid robot, and third would be a rubik's cube. The first has characteristics that are clearly defined. The second mimics these characteristics. The third has no defining traits and can be given a gender at someone's discretion because at that point it does not matter. Your idea of gender conditioning is a reference to social gender identities which is where we give actions gender. That also changes place to place and falls into the third category of gendered by opinion. Your inclusion of outliers also does not render gender moot. As these outliers are biologically 2 genders. This is not in any way a killing blow to the definition of gender. In fact it only proves further that biology is the main deciding factor in it's categorical duties.

Anyhow I rambled on. Lemme just summarize. Sex is exclusive to humans and any other biological entity. Gender is used to categorize everything and anything into either masculine or feminine with biology being prioritized in this categorization. To deny the idea of gender is to deny the idea of sex as they are almost identical. Gender simply covers a broader spectrum.

"Gender is real and that's why it can be assigned to anything and everything like something that isn't innate almost as if it were a human construct." ~Literally you not seeing how you contradict yourself.

You can type paragraphs and paragraphs all you want, you'll still be wrong, even poking holes in your own arguments, but somehow unable to see it. Like how is a boat female despite having literally no traits that can be described as feminine. Do you see a woman wearing pants and get absolutely tilted because "dresses are for girls, pants are for boys?"

Plant reproduction and sexual reproduction in general refers to sex which has nothing to do with gender because one doesn't need an arbitrary title to reproduce, they need functioning sex organs.

Loosen the MAGA hat and read a book, holy. It's not hard.

[Iscah]

I realise people have strong opinions, but it still boggles me how spiteful some of these posts are.

Even if you disagree with the idea of it yourself, you can still respect that the other person truly thinks of themself as the gender they claim to be, and address them in the way they ask to be addressed.

I also find it very hard to believe that people would "choose" to identify in a way that opens them up to such abuse, if they didn't really believe it to be true.

There's a lot more I could write. Anecdotes. People I know. A history of how I've felt about the issue.

But the core is: I know some of these people, and they're just people. They're not something 'other' that's less deserving of respect.

I don't know what to say, but I don't want to say nothing.

It makes me feel awful to see people talk like they do in this thread.

[ElHeggunte]

I realise people have strong opinions, but it still boggles me how spiteful some of these posts are.

Even if you disagree with the idea of it yourself, you can still respect that the other person truly thinks of themself as the gender they claim to be, and address them in the way they ask to be addressed.

Well I mean, it's mostly the garbage way the OP decided to present their argument and responses. They're either trying to troll with some low-quality bait or they lack more self-awareness than Neil Breen.

I've seen people in this community make all sorts of inane "suggestions/requests" and people tend to rebuff them with general civility--so long as the OP doesn't come off like a complete berk.

[Iscah]

Well I mean, it's mostly the garbage way the OP decided to present their argument and responses. They're either trying to troll with some low-quality bait or they lack more self-awareness than Neil Breen.

I've seen people in this community make all sorts of inane "suggestions/requests" and people tend to rebuff them with general civility--so long as the OP doesn't come off like a complete berk.

The vitriol seems to be directed at the general concept, not the OP though.

(And I'll give the benefit of the doubt until someone is definitely trolling - answer them seriously and see if they are actually engaging in discussion or just keeping on their own path (like a certain poster elsewhere in the forum lately). I took them to be genuine but just overdefensive because discussions are likely to end up... well, like this. But yes, did not get the tone off to a great start either. Though I didn't fully absorb their tone the first time I read it either - just looked at what they were actually asking for, which wasn't even 'equal billing' with the male and female options.)

*** On a tangent about "singular they", I just realised I used it all through that last paragraph without even thinking about it. I think I use it a lot, especially when discussing things online - it's a lot easier than possibly referring to someone by the wrong gender. Though on the receiving end, some people default to using "he" to refer to anyone on a forum, and that always feels strange. Do I hold up the discussion to point out actually I'm a "she", or let it slide? (and I guess for someone who doesn't feel right with either set of pronouns, it must feel like that all the time.)

And I agree it's not worth the work to implement it into this game at this point - particularly relative to things that will benefit the majority of players. It's something that would need to be in there from the ground up.

I do have to wonder how people will handle it in future games with character-creator options though, because even the most idealistic "cater to everyone" aspiration needs to be balanced with how many extra options they can actually provide.

I guess it might depend on where society goes and what becomes the 'expected minimum', and whether people identify in more complex or less complex ways once (or "if", for those who don't see it as inevitable) things become more settled and accepted. Not having to 'make up their own answer' for how to handle pronouns, for example. Singular-they seems to be becoming standardised, in mainstream coverage at least, though I don't know if everyone thinks that's the case or not.