Concise Tank Balance Changes

[Kabooa]

You are allowed to want something different, you are allowed to want something streamlined to just be 1 button spamming. Others are allowed to ask for the old style to be returned. Yes, they are often times mutually exclusive. But lets at least not pretend its because haymaker is the only viable counter attack with debuff allowed in the game and it is a tragedy that its been removed.

That's the point of a discussion. You say a thing, I say a thing. At the end, the end goal of that discussion varies. I like the discussion. It is interesting to see how people view the same aspect of the game. I go in wanting to hear what you have to say and if you do change my mind, victory for you, victory for me. I learnt a thing.

The tragedy isn't that it was Haymaker that got removed. The tragedy is that it was actions -like- Haymaker that got removed. Like Shield Swipe got changed. Beneath all the pomp and performance, FF14's selection of Actions the players use is extremely limited, despite the fact that the engine is capable of much more.

I care about actions that give additional options. That change what you can do, that force considerations onto the field, that give you control. Was old shield swipe spammed every time? No. Because you didn't always need it. Using it when it was available was a choice you made, in place of another GCD, that in turn was based on what you needed, and that had a few considerations as well.

What about Shield Swipe now? Could you say it holds that same weight? Is it a better ability, or a more effective one? Because in my opinion, you could fold that potency into Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within and get rid of Shield Swipe, and Paladin wouldn't lose anything worth noting other than a neat animation and a Gladiator capstone quest reward.

That is the state of Reactives, what little of them remain. That if they were gone, the Job they were attached to lost nothing. You could have made Haymaker worthwhile again, you could have Shield Swipe really feel like this bracing shunt-and-bash counter attack, but no. One got removed, one got changed to Reprisal, and Reprisal went the way of the dinosaurs, which is basically just paving the way for every other Reactive currently in game.

That's the tragedy.

[Chrono_Rising]

That's the point of a discussion. You say a thing, I say a thing. At the end, the end goal of that discussion varies. I like the discussion. It is interesting to see how people view the same aspect of the game. I go in wanting to hear what you have to say and if you do change my mind, victory for you, victory for me. I learnt a thing.

Usually when engaging in discussion the thing I say is related to the thing you say, and the thing you say next is related to that. Sometimes new elements are added in, but typically the discussion evolves from those points. This is not evolving.

You say a thing like "the damage debuff from reprisal is balanced by changing the equation" to which I might respond like "I don't see this justified anywhere" to which I recieved the reply "lethargy is something I miss on blm".

Or you might say "Old Reprisal was a hit when lit skill" to which I might respond "Delaying it strategically was actually a thing for raid buff windows as well as high damage periods" to which I'm only recieving the reply "Hit when lit".

The tragedy isn't that it was Haymaker that got removed.

Reprisal being a "haymaker clone" is literally what started this.

The tragedy is that it was actions -like- Haymaker that got removed. Like Shield Swipe got changed. Beneath all the pomp and performance, FF14's selection of Actions the players use is extremely limited, despite the fact that the engine is capable of much more.

This is a point which has evolved from the post history. I'm going to make a conjecture that what you felt good about with shield swipe and the rare use of haymaker wasn't that it is a skill which you used rarely, I instead have a feeling your pleasure from using these skills actually comes from recognizing niche situations in which using these abilities was actually beneficial. And as I have tried to repeat several times, reprisal had those weird situations as well, but rather than using a rarely used skill a skillful use of reprisal was recognizing when it could be used in more efficient ways than hit it when lit.

I care about actions that give additional options.

See above point.

That change what you can do, that force considerations onto the field, that give you control. Was old shield swipe spammed every time? No. Because you didn't always need it. Using it when it was available was a choice you made, in place of another GCD, that in turn was based on what you needed, and that had a few considerations as well.

Using shield swipe to save on TP or extend goring blade was not all that interesting. The debuff was useless in most cases, the increased enmity was unwelcome since back then part of our dps combo was in an enmity combo, and it was not a potency gain unless extending goring or preventing you from running dry on TP. It is a button which took up room, but was infrequently touched but needed to be kept visible.

What about Shield Swipe now? Could you say it holds that same weight? Is it a better ability, or a more effective one? Because in my opinion, you could fold that potency into Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within and get rid of Shield Swipe, and Paladin wouldn't lose anything worth noting other than a neat animation and a Gladiator capstone quest reward.

Yes, its like old reprisal except less potent, up more frequently, and presents a reward for using sheltron effectively to mitigate damage. However, it presents less decision making than reprisal since it has just 1 function. This argument also folds back into that this also applies to spirits with in which could easily be folded into circle damage as well. Removing more and more oGCDs will make the rotation stale. And on paladin, which is a fairly rigid class, I find random shield swipes to be a nice touch of randomness even if very small.

That is the state of Reactives, what little of them remain. That if they were gone, the Job they were attached to lost nothing. You could have made Haymaker worthwhile again, you could have Shield Swipe really feel like this bracing shunt-and-bash counter attack, but no. One got removed, one got changed to Reprisal, and Reprisal went the way of the dinosaurs, which is basically just paving the way for every other Reactive currently in game.

That's the tragedy.

This feels like a slippery slope argument. I don't see reactives being removed from the game.

[Kabooa]

This is a point which has evolved from the post history. I'm going to make a conjecture that what you felt good about with shield swipe and the rare use of haymaker wasn't that it is a skill which you used rarely, I instead have a feeling your pleasure from using these skills actually comes from recognizing niche situations in which using these abilities was actually beneficial.

That conjecture isn't wrong. Conflicting priority on what action to use and how to maximize use is what makes the otherwise bland-at-a-glance Black Mage an actively engaging job.

Where I disagree is where you paint Reprisal as having similar considerations. Where we got a disconnect is where I mentioned parry rates. It's not that you -don't parry. It's that you can't guarantee your parries. Because you cannot guarantee your parries, this forces your hand regarding Reprisal. Because it has no relative cost (It's OGCD), because it's primarily an offensive tool (Substantial potency), and because the debuff is just so absurdly long, the window of error is minimal and its opportunity cost nonexistent.

It's not that Reprisal didn't have optimal use, it's that the difference between optimal use and just plain use was small. Practically indistinguishable due to variance in when it was available. (Cuz parry)

It would be an identical tool as a literal counter attack button. Push button, parry and strike back the next attack in 3 seconds. 30 second cooldown, 220 potency, the whole shebang. The exact same effect, but the window is smaller, and the control is all yours.

I'd literally have no problem with that. A little extra oomph for Dark Knights, a thematic defensive option comparable to both Shelltron (Defend) and Inner Beast (Ignore), and active use. I couldn't ask for more, and it's really just the simplest of changes, putting the control and onus of activation onto the player instead of the dice.

This feels like a slippery slope argument. I don't see reactives being removed from the game.

I 100% see shield swipe being changed again or being removed.

I see Seigan being removed as it is, because throwing the threat reduction on Merciful Eyes removed any potential want to use Seigan.

And...that's all the reactives as we've been defining them. The Samurai has more reactives than the Tanks combined.

We could potentially add Riddle of Earth, Eye for an Eye, and Arms Length to the list, but those really aren't in the same field. They have a reactive effect, but aren't "reactives".

[Daigosama]

Why not give DRK the ability to give the entire party a lifesteal buff?

[Ekimmak]

Why not give DRK the ability to give the entire party a lifesteal buff?

Because it won't save the party from a super raidwide attack.

[Shurrikhan]

That conjecture isn't wrong. Conflicting priority on what action to use and how to maximize use is what makes the otherwise bland-at-a-glance Black Mage an actively engaging job.

Where I disagree is where you paint Reprisal as having similar considerations. Where we got a disconnect is where I mentioned parry rates. It's not that you -don't parry. It's that you can't guarantee your parries. Because you cannot guarantee your parries, this forces your hand regarding Reprisal. Because it has no relative cost (It's OGCD), because it's primarily an offensive tool (Substantial potency), and because the debuff is just so absurdly long, the window of error is minimal and its opportunity cost nonexistent.

It's not that Reprisal didn't have optimal use, it's that the difference between optimal use and just plain use was small. Practically indistinguishable due to variance in when it was available. (Cuz parry)

I think this is why you'd find so many posts asking for a modified DA-DD back in Heavensward. The dodge mechanic was strong but counterproductive. Without Reprisal and Low Blow being modified to also use dodge chance, which would then synergize perhaps overly powerfully with DA-AD and DA-DP together, and Blood Price gaining from attacks attempted against you rather than solely attacks to hit you (still better than Monk's Riddle of Earth, which cripples Monk dps whenever a SCH shield causes you not to take damage, because that condition is all so sensible...), it could actively hurt survival. At a 30% parry buff that could be stacked with cross-classes Awareness, baseline Dark Dance was still decently strong and was ripe for improvements to offset the more extreme or emergency option of the anti-synergetic DA-DD, but, easier changes being easier changes, instead it was left flawed until just being removed outright.

[Lyth]

Because it won't save the party from a super raidwide attack.

You mean like Charybdis + White Hole? Heartless Archangel? Earthquake + Accretion?

Besides, anything that has the potential to save healer GCDs is useful. It's all about finding the minimum amount of effort to hit the required HP threshold.

[Derio]

DRK would need to have some sort of group mitigation. Group lifesteal would not work.

The point of veil and shake is that they mitigate damage from big group heavy hitting attacks.

I would think that a lvl 70+ skill in the expansion will give us a group mitigation tool for DRK. Otherwise they would have failed in the rework.

[Aluja89]

What about soaking up some or all damage? Like cover but party wide.

[DaulBan]

How is a goddamn balance thread that I posted at 3 AM over a month ago still active. There have gotta be better threads.