Concise Tank Balance Changes

[Chrono_Rising]

1. Yes, I'm lamenting the loss of a counter attack with gameplay weight behind it. Just like I lament prior Shield Swipe. It's almost like these two actions represent a category we need more (Actions that take some thought) while old Reprisal and New Shield Swipe represent what we need less of (It lit, hit).

Haymaker had 0 weight behind it and you are once again over exaggerating this skill. I quickly polled a few people who main monk, of the 10 people I asked 7 I had to remind what it was, 2 of the remaining thought it was still in the game but didn’t realize because they wouldn’t put it on their hot bar, and 1 went as far to say oh yeah, that trash move that was removed.
Real engaging gameplay. I’m sure we could make a monk post on a dps forum and see how many people want the move back, I’m almost positive no one misses it besides you.

2. !@#% in stormblood !#@%ing hurt. A 20% slow is significant when you aren't plodding around in plate armor. I used lethargy because I -didn't- MSQ stormblood as monk, so the amount of my face being punched was on -Black Mage-, but one can easily extrapolate that desire to wanting something to punch you in the face less to another Job that had an appropriate response to said face punching.

I have 4 alts all of which have made it through stormblood. No, it doesn’t hurt, and its really easy to get through all the content. Eureka you can make a case for things hitting hard and needing to get away. Yet another exaggeration.

3. I said parry procs aren't guaranteed to happen. Which is why you -likely hit the ability the moment it flashes up-. At most waiting until the end of the current timer. Which based on the amount of times you hit the ability in the time frame given is likely what happened. "Context."

The context isn’t what you make it up to be, its what was said. Since you seem to forget what you say so easily here is the quote I refer to.

… especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

I used an example of getting 7 reprisals in a 3:45 second to dismiss this idea that it was difficult to get the majority of them. The point of this is not to prove that it is not just a “use it skill” it is to show that it is way more reliable than you are making it out to be.

4. Given the absurdly high uptime on it, we can move forward in Stormblood knowing that encounters are designed around the lack of near permanent 10% reductions. Reprisal in its current form is superior as it no longer relies upon parries to activate, it is useful against all damage, and it can be tailored specifically around where your party struggles most.

A good part of this is useless information: (1) you could always try to save it to put it up for where you needed it and (2) it was always useful against all damage so neither of these points are meaningless except as fluff. Current reprisal is good because you don’t need to set it up or plan for it in advance. You can use it, it is convenient and easy. That’s it. Old reprisal covered more damage when used properly.

5. Salted earth functions in an enemy centric fashion that Leylines does to Black Mage. It creates a specific area you play around and work with. The target's movement and mechanics that in turn force you to move play around this -gameplay-, that this zone you have thrown down is of interest to you for whatever reason, and -adds consideration-. It is entirely possible to miss some or all the benefit by hitting Salted earth the moment it comes up.

Ah so if the gimmick is keep the enemy in the circle it is engaging, if it is work out where to plan to use it and work to set it up then its useless. I find it ironic that you don’t see how arbitrary your lines are.

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit". Your own anecdote shows that. Even if you missed a tank buster, or a raid wide, or a high auto attack segment, odds are as long as you hit the button you gained almost all the benefit regardless of the timing.

Again, my point was to refute your idea that parry procs were somehow rare and we were unlikely to get the proc. There are multiple examples of turns where you would consider delaying your reprisal set up to line up with a mechanic or 1 minute and 3 minute buffs.

FoFi and Reqqy Cat can be removed without any real detriment, sure, but that's more equitable to Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and otherwise any other % increase than it is to Dark Arts. They really just serve as giant signs saying "Do this now." and if they didn't exist, Paladin would still play the same, just like Dragoon and Bard would play the same sans Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

The point being that pressing and timing these buttons in play is enjoyable to people. You might not like it as you have said multiple times but your logic will essentially reduce the game to removing all oGCD actions that aren’t “push now” buttons. While fine the GCD will come out as slow boring and get stale quick.

Darks Arts by contrast is ultimately part of the Dark Knight's resource management game. FoFi is not. I personally wouldn't say Reqqy Cat is of the same importance to Paladin's, mainly because if Reqqy Cat didn't exist, you'd still cast the same number of Holy Spirits, just at different times. (But probably still all in Trick Attack windows so what really changed)

More arbitrary lines. There is no reason dark knightneeds to manage mp. We manage mp simply by the design of the game, this could just as easily be removed and replaced with anything else much like blood is spent through mostly GCD actions, the only exception being delirium.

Here's the thing. -I don't find Dark Arts spam appealing-. I just don't see the merit in moving the button press two slots over and calling it something else. This is at best a lateral shift and at worst regression.

(1)Broke up spam of dark arts (2) had other uses besides damage (3) did involve some planning and shifting at higher levels of play. Just because you didn’t doesn’t mean others did the same.

6. This discussion is between you and me, so those other people should not factor in. Because "Numerous people" who do and numerous people who don't want them back exist here, as well as numerous people who don't care one lick one way or the other, and numerous people who didn't like HW Dark Knight, and numerous people who did, so on and so forth.

Yes, and yet you continue to come back with just flat wrong information and exaggerations of the usefulness of abilities like haymaker.
First we couldn’t have reprisal because its just a haymaker clone (it isn’t and even if it was it was done better than haymaker in terms of actually being put to use).
Then it was just bonus fluff built into the encounter damage formula and so made useless. A fact that you provide no back up for.
Now it’s a “just use immediately” button that had no other purposes. I point out that it does have other uses (holding briefly to time the hit, delaying to line up with buff windows, and oGCD enmity when needed) and that goes ignored. Its not just about opinions, opinions should be based on something.

All of these reasons boil down to “I don’t like it because I used it this way”, perhaps the issue wasn’t the skill, perhaps it was the way it was being used. Personally, I enjoy the multipurpose tool, and I enjoyed trying to time may abilities to fit into certain windows that would have more impact on my raid with reprisal. I enjoyed the not knowing it would proc and having to actively look for procs and resets. I enjoyed HW dark knight. I would like to see a class like it make a comeback. HW dark knight didn’t have super hard hitting windows, what it had was multiple little hits that ended up adding up, and that was a playstyle I enjoyed. Much like Monks enjoy that fast nature of GL, that play style of multiple oGCD actions lighting up and resetting at different times was entertaining and even at times felt chaotic as I tried to double weave.

You are allowed to want something different, you are allowed to want something streamlined to just be 1 button spamming. Others are allowed to ask for the old style to be returned. Yes, they are often times mutually exclusive. But lets at least not pretend its because haymaker is the only viable counter attack with debuff allowed in the game and it is a tragedy that its been removed.

[Kabooa]

You are allowed to want something different, you are allowed to want something streamlined to just be 1 button spamming. Others are allowed to ask for the old style to be returned. Yes, they are often times mutually exclusive. But lets at least not pretend its because haymaker is the only viable counter attack with debuff allowed in the game and it is a tragedy that its been removed.

That's the point of a discussion. You say a thing, I say a thing. At the end, the end goal of that discussion varies. I like the discussion. It is interesting to see how people view the same aspect of the game. I go in wanting to hear what you have to say and if you do change my mind, victory for you, victory for me. I learnt a thing.

The tragedy isn't that it was Haymaker that got removed. The tragedy is that it was actions -like- Haymaker that got removed. Like Shield Swipe got changed. Beneath all the pomp and performance, FF14's selection of Actions the players use is extremely limited, despite the fact that the engine is capable of much more.

I care about actions that give additional options. That change what you can do, that force considerations onto the field, that give you control. Was old shield swipe spammed every time? No. Because you didn't always need it. Using it when it was available was a choice you made, in place of another GCD, that in turn was based on what you needed, and that had a few considerations as well.

What about Shield Swipe now? Could you say it holds that same weight? Is it a better ability, or a more effective one? Because in my opinion, you could fold that potency into Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within and get rid of Shield Swipe, and Paladin wouldn't lose anything worth noting other than a neat animation and a Gladiator capstone quest reward.

That is the state of Reactives, what little of them remain. That if they were gone, the Job they were attached to lost nothing. You could have made Haymaker worthwhile again, you could have Shield Swipe really feel like this bracing shunt-and-bash counter attack, but no. One got removed, one got changed to Reprisal, and Reprisal went the way of the dinosaurs, which is basically just paving the way for every other Reactive currently in game.

That's the tragedy.

[Chrono_Rising]

That's the point of a discussion. You say a thing, I say a thing. At the end, the end goal of that discussion varies. I like the discussion. It is interesting to see how people view the same aspect of the game. I go in wanting to hear what you have to say and if you do change my mind, victory for you, victory for me. I learnt a thing.

Usually when engaging in discussion the thing I say is related to the thing you say, and the thing you say next is related to that. Sometimes new elements are added in, but typically the discussion evolves from those points. This is not evolving.

You say a thing like "the damage debuff from reprisal is balanced by changing the equation" to which I might respond like "I don't see this justified anywhere" to which I recieved the reply "lethargy is something I miss on blm".

Or you might say "Old Reprisal was a hit when lit skill" to which I might respond "Delaying it strategically was actually a thing for raid buff windows as well as high damage periods" to which I'm only recieving the reply "Hit when lit".

The tragedy isn't that it was Haymaker that got removed.

Reprisal being a "haymaker clone" is literally what started this.

The tragedy is that it was actions -like- Haymaker that got removed. Like Shield Swipe got changed. Beneath all the pomp and performance, FF14's selection of Actions the players use is extremely limited, despite the fact that the engine is capable of much more.

This is a point which has evolved from the post history. I'm going to make a conjecture that what you felt good about with shield swipe and the rare use of haymaker wasn't that it is a skill which you used rarely, I instead have a feeling your pleasure from using these skills actually comes from recognizing niche situations in which using these abilities was actually beneficial. And as I have tried to repeat several times, reprisal had those weird situations as well, but rather than using a rarely used skill a skillful use of reprisal was recognizing when it could be used in more efficient ways than hit it when lit.

I care about actions that give additional options.

See above point.

That change what you can do, that force considerations onto the field, that give you control. Was old shield swipe spammed every time? No. Because you didn't always need it. Using it when it was available was a choice you made, in place of another GCD, that in turn was based on what you needed, and that had a few considerations as well.

Using shield swipe to save on TP or extend goring blade was not all that interesting. The debuff was useless in most cases, the increased enmity was unwelcome since back then part of our dps combo was in an enmity combo, and it was not a potency gain unless extending goring or preventing you from running dry on TP. It is a button which took up room, but was infrequently touched but needed to be kept visible.

What about Shield Swipe now? Could you say it holds that same weight? Is it a better ability, or a more effective one? Because in my opinion, you could fold that potency into Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within and get rid of Shield Swipe, and Paladin wouldn't lose anything worth noting other than a neat animation and a Gladiator capstone quest reward.

Yes, its like old reprisal except less potent, up more frequently, and presents a reward for using sheltron effectively to mitigate damage. However, it presents less decision making than reprisal since it has just 1 function. This argument also folds back into that this also applies to spirits with in which could easily be folded into circle damage as well. Removing more and more oGCDs will make the rotation stale. And on paladin, which is a fairly rigid class, I find random shield swipes to be a nice touch of randomness even if very small.

That is the state of Reactives, what little of them remain. That if they were gone, the Job they were attached to lost nothing. You could have made Haymaker worthwhile again, you could have Shield Swipe really feel like this bracing shunt-and-bash counter attack, but no. One got removed, one got changed to Reprisal, and Reprisal went the way of the dinosaurs, which is basically just paving the way for every other Reactive currently in game.

That's the tragedy.

This feels like a slippery slope argument. I don't see reactives being removed from the game.

[Kabooa]

This is a point which has evolved from the post history. I'm going to make a conjecture that what you felt good about with shield swipe and the rare use of haymaker wasn't that it is a skill which you used rarely, I instead have a feeling your pleasure from using these skills actually comes from recognizing niche situations in which using these abilities was actually beneficial.

That conjecture isn't wrong. Conflicting priority on what action to use and how to maximize use is what makes the otherwise bland-at-a-glance Black Mage an actively engaging job.

Where I disagree is where you paint Reprisal as having similar considerations. Where we got a disconnect is where I mentioned parry rates. It's not that you -don't parry. It's that you can't guarantee your parries. Because you cannot guarantee your parries, this forces your hand regarding Reprisal. Because it has no relative cost (It's OGCD), because it's primarily an offensive tool (Substantial potency), and because the debuff is just so absurdly long, the window of error is minimal and its opportunity cost nonexistent.

It's not that Reprisal didn't have optimal use, it's that the difference between optimal use and just plain use was small. Practically indistinguishable due to variance in when it was available. (Cuz parry)

It would be an identical tool as a literal counter attack button. Push button, parry and strike back the next attack in 3 seconds. 30 second cooldown, 220 potency, the whole shebang. The exact same effect, but the window is smaller, and the control is all yours.

I'd literally have no problem with that. A little extra oomph for Dark Knights, a thematic defensive option comparable to both Shelltron (Defend) and Inner Beast (Ignore), and active use. I couldn't ask for more, and it's really just the simplest of changes, putting the control and onus of activation onto the player instead of the dice.

This feels like a slippery slope argument. I don't see reactives being removed from the game.

I 100% see shield swipe being changed again or being removed.

I see Seigan being removed as it is, because throwing the threat reduction on Merciful Eyes removed any potential want to use Seigan.

And...that's all the reactives as we've been defining them. The Samurai has more reactives than the Tanks combined.

We could potentially add Riddle of Earth, Eye for an Eye, and Arms Length to the list, but those really aren't in the same field. They have a reactive effect, but aren't "reactives".

[Shurrikhan]

That conjecture isn't wrong. Conflicting priority on what action to use and how to maximize use is what makes the otherwise bland-at-a-glance Black Mage an actively engaging job.

Where I disagree is where you paint Reprisal as having similar considerations. Where we got a disconnect is where I mentioned parry rates. It's not that you -don't parry. It's that you can't guarantee your parries. Because you cannot guarantee your parries, this forces your hand regarding Reprisal. Because it has no relative cost (It's OGCD), because it's primarily an offensive tool (Substantial potency), and because the debuff is just so absurdly long, the window of error is minimal and its opportunity cost nonexistent.

It's not that Reprisal didn't have optimal use, it's that the difference between optimal use and just plain use was small. Practically indistinguishable due to variance in when it was available. (Cuz parry)

I think this is why you'd find so many posts asking for a modified DA-DD back in Heavensward. The dodge mechanic was strong but counterproductive. Without Reprisal and Low Blow being modified to also use dodge chance, which would then synergize perhaps overly powerfully with DA-AD and DA-DP together, and Blood Price gaining from attacks attempted against you rather than solely attacks to hit you (still better than Monk's Riddle of Earth, which cripples Monk dps whenever a SCH shield causes you not to take damage, because that condition is all so sensible...), it could actively hurt survival. At a 30% parry buff that could be stacked with cross-classes Awareness, baseline Dark Dance was still decently strong and was ripe for improvements to offset the more extreme or emergency option of the anti-synergetic DA-DD, but, easier changes being easier changes, instead it was left flawed until just being removed outright.