Concise Tank Balance Changes

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here.

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave.

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

EDIT: ...You even included the quote that said as much before strawmanning it. That's very disadvantageous to your strawman.

You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

But you're still applying a false ultimatum. None of those things added consequent to the removal of oGCDs that at least those posting to that effect here (or in so many other DRK threads made in complaint to such changes) DID already enjoy. Something with at least some benefit was removed. Nothing of benefit was added as a result of that. There were certainly no wonderful GCDs added in its place. Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

[Kabooa]

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

So I apparently have to say this again.

This is my opinion.

Reprisal in its current form is superior. It removed the inherent conflict of offense vs defense in a game that has been moving towards as much offense as possible. Separating the damage from Reprisal was the best decision to maintain the ability's purpose. (Debuff the enemy) The loss of an actual counter attack is notable, they are, almost universally, one of the Tank archetype's defining skills, but the actual impact it had on the kit was minimal. It was a shiny button. That's it. Its loss is no more or less than Rage of Halone's or Storm's Path debuff.

Low Blow ultimately fit this theme a bit better, and I will say I miss it more than Reprisal, because it required a little bit more attention. You didn't get a blinky light, and you had a very real chance of wasting it.

So my apologies. Thinking back on it, Low Blow was an engaging ability in Dungeons and made for quick-in-the-moment decisions. It fits my qualifier, so I'll rescind that Low Blow was 'just another button'.

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.

[Shurrikhan]

"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

Okay. But that's not remotely the topic I was discussing, and I believe I made that clear. Fell Cleave was a sort of "gold standard" of damage to be dealt in a single GCD. It was iconic. I did not pick the analogy arbitrarily.

I'll admit, I could have been clearer when discussing the other open DoTs available to melee. My point was that few others are so often able to flex their use of their DoT. Touch of Death and Mutiliate are both low pps advantages, allowing them to be delayed a few GCDs if it means securing greater potency elsewhere in their rotation. Phlebotomize, being strong, but rigidly bookended by the rotation, could not be, which is why I did not include it. It is not, in practice, an open DoT. Once work has started on a focus target, it was part of the DRG's combos, firmly embedded in its rotational string (HT, ID, Db, CT, FC/WT; Pb, TT, VT, FT, FC/WT) until playing in low-count AoE with a GCD of 2.33 or less (for extra Geirskogul from 3x CT management and dropped Pb).

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

Mind the italics. Consequent. There was no consequent compensation. No part of what we got had anything to do with what was taken.

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.

Fair enough. I personally liked its synergy with Anticipation and Dark Dance (whereas Bulwark could provide no such gameplay for the CD-bound Shield Swipe), but I'll wholly admit it turned into pure oGCD damage there, which was a bit disappointing.

I think that is our primary disconnect.

When it comes to the tanks, I don't care much for the potency. I care about impact. Thinking on it further, that is the bigger sin with Reprisal compared to Low Blow. The impact isn't noticeable. It's a Dark Arts hit, and a damage debuff, but if the reduction doesn't save a healer GCD or prevent a death, it's not all that different from a Veil that breaks but you're still at 95% health.

I am an old mind tank. I'll play the tank they want me to here, but I wont' like it.

I won't lie and say big numbers don't get some childish glee (Black Mage For Life) but in this regard, Scourge fails. Because it's a DoT. It adds up to a big number, sure, but ultimately it's just a lot of little numbers.

Honestly, bring Scourge back as a 500 potency aoe Weaponskill that costs like 500 TP and I'll take that. If you found it fun to be a Cleave tank, then by golly, I'll sign off on that. The animation lines up for it, and it gives Dark Knights a TP dump between Blood and MP dumps.

Alright. Yep. I get that. I too prefer impact, but, for now, most of our impact will be through damage, so I'm taking what I can get, and finding enjoyment in the nuances of that where I can.

[Chrono_Rising]

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

Your memory seems to be incorrect. I looked back in time at a physical fight on a 3:45 second fight I had 7 uses of reprisal, seems we parried more often than you think. We couldn’t parry magic, and that was a justifiable issue for that iteration of the ability, but dark mind only has a 1 minute cooldown for a reason. Of course, a number or people suggested fixes for this based on expansions of our current kit.

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

Sure, of course that 20 seconds can sometimes include autos, cleaves, and raid wides all of which can benefit from additional mitigation in particular for the party.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Unless holding it for 5 seconds stops a use it isn’t necessarily a dps loss, and if it helps heal through a critical time, or saves a dps from a hard hitting dot then why wouldn’t that be worth it? Of course you need to plan it out but blanketing it with holding it for any duration is a dps loss isn’t the picture either. Yes, most of the time it was up use it, but it felt good to weave and make that split second decision.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.
A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

This whole paragraph seems to way over romanticize a skill that is even more useless with the addition of true north allowing you to do your entire rotation on an enemy facing you. However, since I see haymaker as only ever being useful in solo content which dies so fast it is hardly worth mentioning I’m just going to move on.

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

Again, I disagree that reacting to procs isn’t fun and adds an element to the class. Its why we have oGCDs, just pressing a GCD action every 2.5 seconds would get stale quickly. You are allowed to have your opinion, but what you are saying applies to every oGCD action but only seems to justify getting rid of certain ones, there has to be more.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Like how reprisal added fluff mitigation for a dark knight that also doubled as raid utility in physical fights? Like how Monk has true north as a role skill to specifically to ignore positionals?

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

Great lets do that, while we are at it lets also include the differences in potency, effects, durations, proc mechanics and resets. Might need some updates to bundle the SB additions as well to make it seems alike a cohesive whole.

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

I agree, build on what was so that the job feels like an evolution rather than a tear down and rebuild. Stormblood should have brought additions and built on these systems rather than trashing them.

[Kabooa]

This whole paragraph seems to way over romanticize a skill that is even more useless with the addition of true north allowing you to do your entire rotation on an enemy facing you. However, since I see haymaker as only ever being useful in solo content which dies so fast it is hardly worth mentioning I’m just going to move on.

Again, I disagree that reacting to procs isn’t fun and adds an element to the class. Its why we have oGCDs, just pressing a GCD action every 2.5 seconds would get stale quickly. You are allowed to have your opinion, but what you are saying applies to every oGCD action but only seems to justify getting rid of certain ones, there has to be more.

Like how reprisal added fluff mitigation for a dark knight that also doubled as raid utility in physical fights? Like how Monk has true north as a role skill to specifically to ignore positionals?

Great lets do that, while we are at it lets also include the differences in potency, effects, durations, proc mechanics and resets. Might need some updates to bundle the SB additions as well to make it seems alike a cohesive whole.

I agree, build on what was so that the job feels like an evolution rather than a tear down and rebuild. Stormblood should have brought additions and built on these systems rather than trashing them.

1. Probably why Haymaker was ultimately removed. Unless I'm mistaken, we didn't have an iteration of True North until Stormblood. But I'll say that moving into leveling in Stormblood as a Black Mage, I would have given anything for that 20% slow they took away with Lethargy.

2. Purely reacting to procs itself is muscle memory. Procs that force thought are fun. Reprisal did not do this for me. Thundercloud does it for me because I'm working against multiple considerations. Shot procs do it for me as it inherently changes the value of Quick Reload, and to a lesser extent Reload. Low Blow in dungeons did this for me because you could literally make a Paladin blush at the sheer amount of damage you stop, for effectively no cost.

Low blow in raids, pfft. Hit the button. No considerations. Dark Arts by Gucci.
Reprisal? Hit the button. 7 times over 3:45 seconds means you basically slammed it on cooldown, with a variance of 5-6 seconds between proc and use. That could be "tactically holding it to use to ensure maximum coverage", or "I just didn't !#%ing parry that time."

3. Well, you still have that "Raid utility", only now it's weighted better. Also pfft. "I forgot how to punch this guy's face despite doing it for 15 seconds."

4. Make them interesting and sure.

5. Sure. I think we can all agree Tanks in general need a bit more to them. I'd prefer that direction go into active decision making than blindly smashing Low Blow whenever your 20% to parry procced the 20% chance to reset.

[Chrono_Rising]

1. Probably why Haymaker was ultimately removed. Unless I'm mistaken, we didn't have an iteration of True North until Stormblood.

I believe that you are lamenting the loss of a skill which was replaced with something far better for the exact same reason.

But I'll say that moving into leveling in Stormblood as a Black Mage, I would have given anything for that 20% slow they took away with Lethargy.

This has nothing to do with the conversation so far. Are you trying to say Lethargy is now an equivalent of reprisal as well?

2. Purely reacting to procs itself is muscle memory. Procs that force thought are fun. Reprisal did not do this for me. Thundercloud does it for me because I'm working against multiple considerations. Shot procs do it for me as it inherently changes the value of Quick Reload, and to a lesser extent Reload. Low Blow in dungeons did this for me because you could literally make a Paladin blush at the sheer amount of damage you stop, for effectively no cost.

Low blow in raids, pfft. Hit the button. No considerations. Dark Arts by Gucci.
Reprisal? Hit the button. 7 times over 3:45 seconds means you basically slammed it on cooldown, with a variance of 5-6 seconds between proc and use. That could be "tactically holding it to use to ensure maximum coverage", or "I just didn't !#%ing parry that time."

Way to completely ignore the context. You said parry procs din't happen because parry was a bad stat, I give evidence of being able to parry without slotting it in HW. You want timed uses of reprisal? See o6, o7, o11, and o12s. Also its 110 potency more than dark arts. Lets get rid of salted earth as well for exactly the same reasons you are giving. You aren't saying anything doesn't apply to nearly every oGCD. Work FoF into the GCD potency along with spirits within and requiscat, work the damage of inner release into the potency of Fell Cleave along with upheaval, take the potency off plunge so that it can be used as a gap closer, just tweak the potency of Dark Arts. Why is Dark Arts appealing? Why not take that away and just work the potency into the GCD.

3. Well, you still have that "Raid utility", only now it's weighted better. Also pfft. "I forgot how to punch this guy's face despite doing it for 15 seconds."

I would not agree that the 10% down on a tank buster, cleave, auto's and a raid wide is made up by tbn or the 5 seconds on current reprisal. You are making this claim and as I said earlier not providing any back up for it.

4. Make them interesting and sure.

Ah, now we have strings attached. Does it also have to be interesting to you or do the numerous people already asking for them back count enough to say they found them interesting? You are entitled to your opinion that they are not interesting, but enough with the continuous reposting of you not personally finding them interesting. We got it, and I'm positive others found it plenty interesting.

[Kabooa]

I believe that you are lamenting the loss of a skill which was replaced with something far better for the exact same reason.

This has nothing to do with the conversation so far. Are you trying to say Lethargy is now an equivalent of reprisal as well?

Way to completely ignore the context. You said parry procs din't happen because parry was a bad stat, I give evidence of being able to parry without slotting it in HW. You want timed uses of reprisal? See o6, o7, o11, and o12s. Also its 110 potency more than dark arts. Lets get rid of salted earth as well for exactly the same reasons you are giving. You aren't saying anything doesn't apply to nearly every oGCD. Work FoF into the GCD potency along with spirits within and requiscat, work the damage of inner release into the potency of Fell Cleave along with upheaval, take the potency off plunge so that it can be used as a gap closer, just tweak the potency of Dark Arts. Why is Dark Arts appealing? Why not take that away and just work the potency into the GCD.

I would not agree that the 10% down on a tank buster, cleave, auto's and a raid wide is made up by tbn or the 5 seconds on current reprisal. You are making this claim and as I said earlier not providing any back up for it.

Ah, now we have strings attached. Does it also have to be interesting to you or do the numerous people already asking for them back count enough to say they found them interesting? You are entitled to your opinion that they are not interesting, but enough with the continuous reposting of you not personally finding them interesting. We got it, and I'm positive others found it plenty interesting.

1. Yes, I'm lamenting the loss of a counter attack with gameplay weight behind it. Just like I lament prior Shield Swipe. It's almost like these two actions represent a category we need more (Actions that take some thought) while old Reprisal and New Shield Swipe represent what we need less of (It lit, hit).

2. !@#% in stormblood !#@%ing hurt. A 20% slow is significant when you aren't plodding around in plate armor. I used lethargy because I -didn't- MSQ stormblood as monk, so the amount of my face being punched was on -Black Mage-, but one can easily extrapolate that desire to wanting something to punch you in the face less to another Job that had an appropriate response to said face punching.

3. I said parry procs aren't guaranteed to happen. Which is why you -likely hit the ability the moment it flashes up-. At most waiting until the end of the current timer. Which based on the amount of times you hit the ability in the time frame given is likely what happened. "Context."

4. Given the absurdly high uptime on it, we can move forward in Stormblood knowing that encounters are designed around the lack of near permanent 10% reductions. Reprisal in its current form is superior as it no longer relies upon parries to activate, it is useful against all damage, and it can be tailored specifically around where your party struggles most.

5. Salted earth functions in an enemy centric fashion that Leylines does to Black Mage. It creates a specific area you play around and work with. The target's movement and mechanics that in turn force you to move play around this -gameplay-, that this zone you have thrown down is of interest to you for whatever reason, and -adds consideration-. It is entirely possible to miss some or all the benefit by hitting Salted earth the moment it comes up.

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit". Your own anecdote shows that. Even if you missed a tank buster, or a raid wide, or a high auto attack segment, odds are as long as you hit the button you gained almost all the benefit regardless of the timing.

You could remove the Potency of Plunge, but Plunge itself remains an integral and interesting part of the Kit. It can be utilized as a gap closer and in other ways to effectively cheat Mechanics that others can not. Now if you said "remove plunge" we'll !@#%ing riot.

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit."

FoFi and Reqqy Cat can be removed without any real detriment, sure, but that's more equitable to Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and otherwise any other % increase than it is to Dark Arts. They really just serve as giant signs saying "Do this now." and if they didn't exist, Paladin would still play the same, just like Dragoon and Bard would play the same sans Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

Darks Arts by contrast is ultimately part of the Dark Knight's resource management game. FoFi is not. I personally wouldn't say Reqqy Cat is of the same importance to Paladin's, mainly because if Reqqy Cat didn't exist, you'd still cast the same number of Holy Spirits, just at different times. (But probably still all in Trick Attack windows so what really changed)

Reprisal? "It's lit, hit."

Here's the thing. -I don't find Dark Arts spam appealing-. I just don't see the merit in moving the button press two slots over and calling it something else. This is at best a lateral shift and at worst regression.

6. This discussion is between you and me, so those other people should not factor in. Because "Numerous people" who do and numerous people who don't want them back exist here, as well as numerous people who don't care one lick one way or the other, and numerous people who didn't like HW Dark Knight, and numerous people who did, so on and so forth.

So for you, you don't need all that. You think it was interesting enough on its own. That's your opinion. I disagree with it.

I need more than that. I don't think it was interesting enough on its own. That's my opinion. You (and others) disagree with it.