Concise Tank Balance Changes

[Kabooa]

Reprisal and Haymaker are not direct analogs. Haymaker was a counter attack, but a poor choice of one in most pve party settings. It was a dps loss, the slow didn't apply to most enemies, and cost a GCD which lowers the feel of it being a counter-attack.

We'll disagree here.

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

[Chrono_Rising]

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

You can of course "balance content" (a claim I have never seen justified anywhere) by removing player choice and just build it in, but there were numerous examples of how you could use reprisal both defensively and offensively in HW, particularly in savage content, and that choice and planning was what gave the skill flavor and made it enjoyable. Was it perfect? No, but it did give dark knight flavor over the options on paladin and warrior.

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

[Shurrikhan]

Scourge in our current climate would be fire and forget.

Retaliation was the counter attack with a debuff.

Symptom of larger issue: Overly costly Grit-swapping and reduced defensive spendability. The player climate will only streamline with time to avoiding tank stance. The more (ridiculously) costly the tank-stance, the less it can synergize with pacing elements.

Retaliation? I don't think that was a thing? In WoW, yes, but XIV? I don't think even 1.x had a skill by that name.
Pre-SB has historically had Reprisal, Shield Bash (mentioned above), and Haymaker, but the last was a weaponskill, not ability, and was only ever effectively used by Bard in the Thordan fight for the stronger-than-Heavy-Shot instant cast despite WM. Its only use by its native job was to, if the stars aligned just right on a rotation misaligned by exactly one GCD, to resync your stance cycle when both ToD and Fracture were already up, or to co-tank dungeons when no real-tank was present and the whole party was undergeared. Reprisal, on the other hand, stacked beautifully with SP and Virus, rivaling Divine Veil. Its debuff was NOT, outside of dungeon spam, an accidental byproduct. And it is the only one of the debuffs that affected bosses or even elites, i.e.... was a debuff.

I guess the greater question is, though... why prune them rather than doubling down on their benefits? Having only PS and SE consume DA, with PS being rarely used and SE always having the DA-less option of DL, made the rotation far smoother. The removal of Low Blow and Reprisal from the DRK repertoire homogenized its oGCD usage to the point that one of its most satisfying skills became a source of disgust. The removal of Reprisal largely excused the waste in DA-DD, and in later builds the removal of DD itself. With that then came the removal/transfer of DRK's core unique mechanic, defensive spending of a shared resource, now seen only --and arguably not as satisfyingly-- in PLD's Holy Spirit vs. Clemency.

Between Scourge, Reprisal, and Low Blow's reset mechanic, DRK excelled at focus-target damage in AoE fights. Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave, and it was one of only three melee DoTs (the only others being ToD, which had to be used in specific amounts not to desync rotation, and Mutilate, which was noticeably lower value) to require no pre-combos. That was a valid and enjoyable little niche. Now, we can only attempt to reach Warrior's shoulder in AoE and only when enter an AoE fight with full Blood and Mana with Blood Weapon and Delirium at the ready, without need of self-preservation, against 14+ targets for DA-Quietus spam. Now, I love that particular gimmick of BW-Quietus refunding itself. It feels mighty, even when hitting for a third of what WAR does, but... we didn't need to lose our cleave potential just to have middling mass AoE. In terms of relative strength, we were actually stronger even in mass AoE previously. We were gutted in one regard so we could be trimmed in another.

Black Blood, Bloodspiller, and Quietus were not mutually exclusive to any of that stuff. We didn't need the hotbar space reclaimed. Paladin certainly had no such reclamations. So... why were they removed? Integral, satisfying gameplay removed... for no dependent advantage.

[Kabooa]

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

[Kabooa]

Between Scourge, Reprisal, and Low Blow's reset mechanic, DRK excelled at focus-target damage in AoE fights. Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave, and it was one of only three melee DoTs (the only others being ToD, which had to be used in specific amounts not to desync rotation, and Mutilate, which was noticeably lower value) to require no pre-combos. That was a valid and enjoyable little niche.

Mutilate
Phelbotomize
Fracture
Touch of Death
Scourge

Paladin and - Oh, look, it was just paladin who was out there, for the Melee. I mean, none of the Ranged DPS jobs had a tacked on DoT that had no real bearing on the gameplay other than a maintenance dot-

Lead Shot.

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here. If anything, -not- having one of these was the bigger niche. That's just the standalone DoTs independent of a Job's mechanics, -and that's nearly half the Jobs- available at Heavensward. I didn't include Black Mage, Arcanist and the derivatives, or Bard because they all directly interact with their other mechanics.

And it seems unfair to include White Mage and Astro, as without them they have 1 other offensive spell. Hell, they might be the only two jobs who should have kept all the ranks of their DoTs, just so they have a bit more variety in what they press.

And again, when it comes to gameplay, this is opinion. This is why I said we'll disagree.

OGCD attacks are one of the biggest detriments in their implementation to job diversity. You know what the difference between Circle of Scorn and Elixir Field is? Animation and potency. They are otherwise identical in consideration and use. As often as possible, as many in buff windows as possible.

There is no weight to them compared to one another. Really, you could fold Contra Sixt and Fleche into each other and the Red Mage doesn't change at all.

This is the position I'm coming from. There is no difference between Elixir Field or Circle of Scorn to me in execution or consideration. There is no difference between Fleche or Gauss Round.

You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

Reprisal? "I either hit it now or within the action window"
Low Blow? "Oh it's up, I should hit it so I don't waste a proc"
Scourge? "There's less than 5 targets and this isn't on that guy".

These are the last on my list for what I'd want for Dark Knight. Good riddance to them.

[Shurrikhan]

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same.

No; no, you really couldn't.

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

For functionality, sure. For gameplay? For identity?

For what is your reprisal if you are not attacked? Why is it better not to have synergy between skills, like a Parry chance increase to go with your parry-based counter attack?

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

I'll agree that the longer duration deemphasized skill-gap. But there was still enough that some of us knew when to hold onto it even in more casual content as to need a healer GCD fewer, without losing a use within the fight.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Bhavacakra is an oGCD, with a CD that could cause holding onto it to cost you a cast within a fight. Yet most NINs do not invariably blow it on CD; they wait for their raid buffs and/or TA window if they're near enough to sync unless they're party performance has proven that they need to cast it immediately to get that extra cast in within the fight.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything.

Now this I'll totally agree with. Yes.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

It was 20% and not affect the rate of specials, making it useful only against casters and purely auto-attack based physical mobs. Because auto-attacks continue to recharge over downtime, its effect was practically nullified by/during stuns and/or kiting, both of which you'd want to use in the same situations at which Haymaker would become at all useful (though not much even then).

Prior to the SB changes, 170 potency was the lowest ePot of Monk's entire toolkit. Snap Punch was 180. True Strike was 190. Bootshine was an effective 225, diminishing with Crit. Even a Dragon Kick and two GCDs other than with Demolish or Twin Snakes and three GCDs (or two with the full ticks of Demolish) outperformed it. If a Monk wanted to use no-positional stanceless GCD, it'd be more likely to use Impulse Drive, if taken, unless short on TP, as it was more reliably available. Haymaker's use over alternatives becomes more likely when co-tanking dungeons as Monk, as you'll want to keep Keen Flurry, Skull Sunder, and maybe even Hawkeye if low on accuracy for frontals.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

It had a low-metric impact that made it more open to faith than to science. Nonetheless, some did use it for a time, science-ing it out, and we did have the data to prove that it scarcely mattered except against very particular mobs in very niche situations.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Data. We can have difference in uses and difference in goals. Neither will change its optimal performance, which is objective.

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

People do not project your low-effort play onto any and all DRK players. Both were often vital parts of my survival, and I used them accordingly. Please do not use false ultimatums; Bloodspiller, Quietus, and TBN are not mutually exclusive with the HW forms of Low Blow and Reprisal.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Which hole is that, specifically? I miss the concept of Haymaker, too. But I'd miss its place in the actual game a whole more if it hit like a truck relative to its cost as it did in 1.x--to the point I could and did viably tank 8-man content--but I, too, like the idea of melee being able to take advantage of being in the thick of it, and if only for brief moments, take advantage of calling attention onto themselves.

But, as it was, it supplied nothing to that theme. I could tank as well, if not better, without it. TP as a resource was essentially "how little must have to use Haymaker to TP when I need it?" And the answer was usually... about twice in the longest of pulls. If I absolutely needed to skip a stance without DoTing, while holding enmity, I could Skull Sunder for an effective 465 enmity-potency. Unless I was low TP and riding a sufficient margin to keep the mob off the healer and ensure specials were aimed out, I could only afford not to use it, but I couldn't well afford to use it.

tl;dr: While it's true that implementation of Low Blow and Reprisal could have been better to ensure their advantages were more visible to a broader audience, you're heavily projecting your own negligence or misunderstanding and asking us to be content with the fallout of changes made in ways that favored your personal preferences. Expect others to be a bit peeved. (Unless, you're just defending the development decisions... for the sake of it... despite that, again, there is nothing mutually exclusive between what already worked in HW and the successful DRK additions of Stormblood.)

[Lyth]

Could just be me, but I understood that post to mean "Don't copy over actions on to jobs simply for the purposes of giving that job a competitive equivalent." Which is very different from "Don't create an action that in any way resembles another action already in the game."

The former actually makes sense. Let's use the change to Shake it off in 4.2 as an example. The problem wasn't that Divine Veil was already in the game. If anything, I feel like Veil's design could be further improved on by taking notes from Shake it off, just like Shield Swipe was improved on by taking notes from HW Reprisal. If something works well from a design perspective, it makes sense to take note of it. The problem was that players went to the devs with Shake it off and said "We don't like this action, where is our Divine Veil equivalent?" The correct response to that is: "Why do you always need to have an equivalent?" The problem wasn't the end point. The problem was in the process.

The latter, of course, is so absurd that it's not even worth expending the effort of posting counter-examples. I think you actually made it harder for yourself by forcing yourself to prove that Reprisal was identical to Haymaker. The reason you had to omit mentioning Shield Swipe (which is the more obvious analogue than the obscure Haymaker) was because Swipe ended up being changed to become closer to Reprisal. The whole thing was an unnecessary stretch.

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here.

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave.

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

EDIT: ...You even included the quote that said as much before strawmanning it. That's very disadvantageous to your strawman.

You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

But you're still applying a false ultimatum. None of those things added consequent to the removal of oGCDs that at least those posting to that effect here (or in so many other DRK threads made in complaint to such changes) DID already enjoy. Something with at least some benefit was removed. Nothing of benefit was added as a result of that. There were certainly no wonderful GCDs added in its place. Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

[Kabooa]

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

Shield Swipe's current iteration is actually my problem with OGCDs in general. "If it lit, hit." Shield Swipe in its old iteration was a stopgap, used primarily to manage TP with minimal potency loss (As it was less than the average). The pacify was useful, but like most other interesting effects, most things were and are immune to it.

That is why I used Haymaker. Shield Swipe just became the ability i want to see less of. Blind spam whenever it's up. I can't say "Well it should have been like Shield Swipe" because even Shield Swipe decided it didn't want to be Shield Swipe. Haymaker at least had the grace to bow out completely.

And it's both. We need action diversity, and with those diverse actions, they should hold up to one another. Though thinking on it, you technically could put Scourge back in and it'd be "unique" if only because all the others got removed too, but I don't find anything all that interesting about hitting a DoT every 30 seconds.

Butthat'sjustmyopinionman.jpeg

[Kabooa]

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

So I apparently have to say this again.

This is my opinion.

Reprisal in its current form is superior. It removed the inherent conflict of offense vs defense in a game that has been moving towards as much offense as possible. Separating the damage from Reprisal was the best decision to maintain the ability's purpose. (Debuff the enemy) The loss of an actual counter attack is notable, they are, almost universally, one of the Tank archetype's defining skills, but the actual impact it had on the kit was minimal. It was a shiny button. That's it. Its loss is no more or less than Rage of Halone's or Storm's Path debuff.

Low Blow ultimately fit this theme a bit better, and I will say I miss it more than Reprisal, because it required a little bit more attention. You didn't get a blinky light, and you had a very real chance of wasting it.

So my apologies. Thinking back on it, Low Blow was an engaging ability in Dungeons and made for quick-in-the-moment decisions. It fits my qualifier, so I'll rescind that Low Blow was 'just another button'.

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.