Concise Tank Balance Changes

[Chrono_Rising]

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

You can of course "balance content" (a claim I have never seen justified anywhere) by removing player choice and just build it in, but there were numerous examples of how you could use reprisal both defensively and offensively in HW, particularly in savage content, and that choice and planning was what gave the skill flavor and made it enjoyable. Was it perfect? No, but it did give dark knight flavor over the options on paladin and warrior.

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

[Kabooa]

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

[Shurrikhan]

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same.

No; no, you really couldn't.

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

For functionality, sure. For gameplay? For identity?

For what is your reprisal if you are not attacked? Why is it better not to have synergy between skills, like a Parry chance increase to go with your parry-based counter attack?

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

I'll agree that the longer duration deemphasized skill-gap. But there was still enough that some of us knew when to hold onto it even in more casual content as to need a healer GCD fewer, without losing a use within the fight.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Bhavacakra is an oGCD, with a CD that could cause holding onto it to cost you a cast within a fight. Yet most NINs do not invariably blow it on CD; they wait for their raid buffs and/or TA window if they're near enough to sync unless they're party performance has proven that they need to cast it immediately to get that extra cast in within the fight.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything.

Now this I'll totally agree with. Yes.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

It was 20% and not affect the rate of specials, making it useful only against casters and purely auto-attack based physical mobs. Because auto-attacks continue to recharge over downtime, its effect was practically nullified by/during stuns and/or kiting, both of which you'd want to use in the same situations at which Haymaker would become at all useful (though not much even then).

Prior to the SB changes, 170 potency was the lowest ePot of Monk's entire toolkit. Snap Punch was 180. True Strike was 190. Bootshine was an effective 225, diminishing with Crit. Even a Dragon Kick and two GCDs other than with Demolish or Twin Snakes and three GCDs (or two with the full ticks of Demolish) outperformed it. If a Monk wanted to use no-positional stanceless GCD, it'd be more likely to use Impulse Drive, if taken, unless short on TP, as it was more reliably available. Haymaker's use over alternatives becomes more likely when co-tanking dungeons as Monk, as you'll want to keep Keen Flurry, Skull Sunder, and maybe even Hawkeye if low on accuracy for frontals.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

It had a low-metric impact that made it more open to faith than to science. Nonetheless, some did use it for a time, science-ing it out, and we did have the data to prove that it scarcely mattered except against very particular mobs in very niche situations.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Data. We can have difference in uses and difference in goals. Neither will change its optimal performance, which is objective.

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

People do not project your low-effort play onto any and all DRK players. Both were often vital parts of my survival, and I used them accordingly. Please do not use false ultimatums; Bloodspiller, Quietus, and TBN are not mutually exclusive with the HW forms of Low Blow and Reprisal.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Which hole is that, specifically? I miss the concept of Haymaker, too. But I'd miss its place in the actual game a whole more if it hit like a truck relative to its cost as it did in 1.x--to the point I could and did viably tank 8-man content--but I, too, like the idea of melee being able to take advantage of being in the thick of it, and if only for brief moments, take advantage of calling attention onto themselves.

But, as it was, it supplied nothing to that theme. I could tank as well, if not better, without it. TP as a resource was essentially "how little must have to use Haymaker to TP when I need it?" And the answer was usually... about twice in the longest of pulls. If I absolutely needed to skip a stance without DoTing, while holding enmity, I could Skull Sunder for an effective 465 enmity-potency. Unless I was low TP and riding a sufficient margin to keep the mob off the healer and ensure specials were aimed out, I could only afford not to use it, but I couldn't well afford to use it.

tl;dr: While it's true that implementation of Low Blow and Reprisal could have been better to ensure their advantages were more visible to a broader audience, you're heavily projecting your own negligence or misunderstanding and asking us to be content with the fallout of changes made in ways that favored your personal preferences. Expect others to be a bit peeved. (Unless, you're just defending the development decisions... for the sake of it... despite that, again, there is nothing mutually exclusive between what already worked in HW and the successful DRK additions of Stormblood.)

[Lyth]

Could just be me, but I understood that post to mean "Don't copy over actions on to jobs simply for the purposes of giving that job a competitive equivalent." Which is very different from "Don't create an action that in any way resembles another action already in the game."

The former actually makes sense. Let's use the change to Shake it off in 4.2 as an example. The problem wasn't that Divine Veil was already in the game. If anything, I feel like Veil's design could be further improved on by taking notes from Shake it off, just like Shield Swipe was improved on by taking notes from HW Reprisal. If something works well from a design perspective, it makes sense to take note of it. The problem was that players went to the devs with Shake it off and said "We don't like this action, where is our Divine Veil equivalent?" The correct response to that is: "Why do you always need to have an equivalent?" The problem wasn't the end point. The problem was in the process.

The latter, of course, is so absurd that it's not even worth expending the effort of posting counter-examples. I think you actually made it harder for yourself by forcing yourself to prove that Reprisal was identical to Haymaker. The reason you had to omit mentioning Shield Swipe (which is the more obvious analogue than the obscure Haymaker) was because Swipe ended up being changed to become closer to Reprisal. The whole thing was an unnecessary stretch.

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

[Kabooa]

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

Shield Swipe's current iteration is actually my problem with OGCDs in general. "If it lit, hit." Shield Swipe in its old iteration was a stopgap, used primarily to manage TP with minimal potency loss (As it was less than the average). The pacify was useful, but like most other interesting effects, most things were and are immune to it.

That is why I used Haymaker. Shield Swipe just became the ability i want to see less of. Blind spam whenever it's up. I can't say "Well it should have been like Shield Swipe" because even Shield Swipe decided it didn't want to be Shield Swipe. Haymaker at least had the grace to bow out completely.

And it's both. We need action diversity, and with those diverse actions, they should hold up to one another. Though thinking on it, you technically could put Scourge back in and it'd be "unique" if only because all the others got removed too, but I don't find anything all that interesting about hitting a DoT every 30 seconds.

Butthat'sjustmyopinionman.jpeg

[Shurrikhan]

Shield Swipe's current iteration is actually my problem with OGCDs in general. "If it lit, hit." Shield Swipe in its old iteration was a stopgap, used primarily to manage TP with minimal potency loss (As it was less than the average). The pacify was useful, but like most other interesting effects, most things were and are immune to it.

Agreed. I so badly wanted them to do just about anything else with Shield Swipe. I feel like it was so close to living up to at least something, especially in dungeoning. Even before, at a 2.4 GCD, it would allow you not to clip your Goring Blade (previously 24 seconds' duration), which was at least of mild use. Instead it really did become almost obligatory to hit it as soon as possible, as long as you wouldn't have to wait 25% of its CD to give it another use within Fight or Flight. (Admittedly, I did get a tiny little grin out of the third use in the FoF window if I got (the old version of) Spear.)

And it's both. We need action diversity, and with those diverse actions, they should hold up to one another. Though thinking on it, you technically could put Scourge back in and it'd be "unique" if only because all the others got removed too, but I don't find anything all that interesting about hitting a DoT every 30 seconds.

It's less that it was a DoT, and more that it hit for a ton. Think of it like Deathflare: It's pretty, it's huge damage, and it gave a niche advantage. (SMN briefly became the god of (wasteful) PvP burst and remained the god of AoE. And of most things caster-related. DRK, in turn, became the master of cleave-damage among tanks; Decimate was barely a bonus, and Fracture extremely limited, and Paladin's FoF-Goring Blade spread and 10 AoE pps off Circle of Scorn were no joke, exactly, Salted Earth, Scourge, and Dark Passenger let DRK revel in lower-count AoE.)

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here.

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave.

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

EDIT: ...You even included the quote that said as much before strawmanning it. That's very disadvantageous to your strawman.

You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

But you're still applying a false ultimatum. None of those things added consequent to the removal of oGCDs that at least those posting to that effect here (or in so many other DRK threads made in complaint to such changes) DID already enjoy. Something with at least some benefit was removed. Nothing of benefit was added as a result of that. There were certainly no wonderful GCDs added in its place. Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

[Kabooa]

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

So I apparently have to say this again.

This is my opinion.

Reprisal in its current form is superior. It removed the inherent conflict of offense vs defense in a game that has been moving towards as much offense as possible. Separating the damage from Reprisal was the best decision to maintain the ability's purpose. (Debuff the enemy) The loss of an actual counter attack is notable, they are, almost universally, one of the Tank archetype's defining skills, but the actual impact it had on the kit was minimal. It was a shiny button. That's it. Its loss is no more or less than Rage of Halone's or Storm's Path debuff.

Low Blow ultimately fit this theme a bit better, and I will say I miss it more than Reprisal, because it required a little bit more attention. You didn't get a blinky light, and you had a very real chance of wasting it.

So my apologies. Thinking back on it, Low Blow was an engaging ability in Dungeons and made for quick-in-the-moment decisions. It fits my qualifier, so I'll rescind that Low Blow was 'just another button'.

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.

[Shurrikhan]

"Hitting slightly more than a Fell Cleave" is also a strange qualifier. That's a weird niche, don't you think? That was my thought. That was how you wanted to qualify them. I instead chose mine. "DoTs stronger per GCD than a combo line" because that's what every other comparable, stand alone, sans mechanic non-combo DoT is.

Okay. But that's not remotely the topic I was discussing, and I believe I made that clear. Fell Cleave was a sort of "gold standard" of damage to be dealt in a single GCD. It was iconic. I did not pick the analogy arbitrarily.

I'll admit, I could have been clearer when discussing the other open DoTs available to melee. My point was that few others are so often able to flex their use of their DoT. Touch of Death and Mutiliate are both low pps advantages, allowing them to be delayed a few GCDs if it means securing greater potency elsewhere in their rotation. Phlebotomize, being strong, but rigidly bookended by the rotation, could not be, which is why I did not include it. It is not, in practice, an open DoT. Once work has started on a focus target, it was part of the DRG's combos, firmly embedded in its rotational string (HT, ID, Db, CT, FC/WT; Pb, TT, VT, FT, FC/WT) until playing in low-count AoE with a GCD of 2.33 or less (for extra Geirskogul from 3x CT management and dropped Pb).

They did compensate. But whether or not that compensation is wanted is another matter.

Mind the italics. Consequent. There was no consequent compensation. No part of what we got had anything to do with what was taken.

Low Blow in raids I steadfastly hold my ground we aren't losing anything with its loss.

Fair enough. I personally liked its synergy with Anticipation and Dark Dance (whereas Bulwark could provide no such gameplay for the CD-bound Shield Swipe), but I'll wholly admit it turned into pure oGCD damage there, which was a bit disappointing.

I think that is our primary disconnect.

When it comes to the tanks, I don't care much for the potency. I care about impact. Thinking on it further, that is the bigger sin with Reprisal compared to Low Blow. The impact isn't noticeable. It's a Dark Arts hit, and a damage debuff, but if the reduction doesn't save a healer GCD or prevent a death, it's not all that different from a Veil that breaks but you're still at 95% health.

I am an old mind tank. I'll play the tank they want me to here, but I wont' like it.

I won't lie and say big numbers don't get some childish glee (Black Mage For Life) but in this regard, Scourge fails. Because it's a DoT. It adds up to a big number, sure, but ultimately it's just a lot of little numbers.

Honestly, bring Scourge back as a 500 potency aoe Weaponskill that costs like 500 TP and I'll take that. If you found it fun to be a Cleave tank, then by golly, I'll sign off on that. The animation lines up for it, and it gives Dark Knights a TP dump between Blood and MP dumps.

Alright. Yep. I get that. I too prefer impact, but, for now, most of our impact will be through damage, so I'm taking what I can get, and finding enjoyment in the nuances of that where I can.

[Chrono_Rising]

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

Your memory seems to be incorrect. I looked back in time at a physical fight on a 3:45 second fight I had 7 uses of reprisal, seems we parried more often than you think. We couldn’t parry magic, and that was a justifiable issue for that iteration of the ability, but dark mind only has a 1 minute cooldown for a reason. Of course, a number or people suggested fixes for this based on expansions of our current kit.

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

Sure, of course that 20 seconds can sometimes include autos, cleaves, and raid wides all of which can benefit from additional mitigation in particular for the party.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Unless holding it for 5 seconds stops a use it isn’t necessarily a dps loss, and if it helps heal through a critical time, or saves a dps from a hard hitting dot then why wouldn’t that be worth it? Of course you need to plan it out but blanketing it with holding it for any duration is a dps loss isn’t the picture either. Yes, most of the time it was up use it, but it felt good to weave and make that split second decision.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.
A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

This whole paragraph seems to way over romanticize a skill that is even more useless with the addition of true north allowing you to do your entire rotation on an enemy facing you. However, since I see haymaker as only ever being useful in solo content which dies so fast it is hardly worth mentioning I’m just going to move on.

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

Again, I disagree that reacting to procs isn’t fun and adds an element to the class. Its why we have oGCDs, just pressing a GCD action every 2.5 seconds would get stale quickly. You are allowed to have your opinion, but what you are saying applies to every oGCD action but only seems to justify getting rid of certain ones, there has to be more.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Like how reprisal added fluff mitigation for a dark knight that also doubled as raid utility in physical fights? Like how Monk has true north as a role skill to specifically to ignore positionals?

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

Great lets do that, while we are at it lets also include the differences in potency, effects, durations, proc mechanics and resets. Might need some updates to bundle the SB additions as well to make it seems alike a cohesive whole.

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

I agree, build on what was so that the job feels like an evolution rather than a tear down and rebuild. Stormblood should have brought additions and built on these systems rather than trashing them.