Concise Tank Balance Changes

[Kabooa]

Reprisal and Haymaker are not direct analogs. Haymaker was a counter attack, but a poor choice of one in most pve party settings. It was a dps loss, the slow didn't apply to most enemies, and cost a GCD which lowers the feel of it being a counter-attack.

We'll disagree here.

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

[Chrono_Rising]

Retaliation was just another button and I frankly don't miss it in its old iteration. It is no different to me than current Dark Arts: Hit button, more potency. The damage reduction was just a bonus, but given the high uptime, we can just assume that all bosses moving forward are balanced with the assumption that current Retaliation will be used and prevent just as much damage. Same as we can assume all bosses moving forward are balanced around the lack of Strength and Int Down, and Damage Down from the Tank combos that are no longer present.

You can of course "balance content" (a claim I have never seen justified anywhere) by removing player choice and just build it in, but there were numerous examples of how you could use reprisal both defensively and offensively in HW, particularly in savage content, and that choice and planning was what gave the skill flavor and made it enjoyable. Was it perfect? No, but it did give dark knight flavor over the options on paladin and warrior.

But from a flavor point it is basically Haymaker. It's a defense trigger with a defensive debuff.

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

[Kabooa]

Haymaker: Nearly ever used, when used has little effect.
Reprisal: used as often as possible unless there were strategic reasons to hold it.

Two abilities which can be generalized into a similar general statement doesn't make a similar flavor, just as food and dirt are both just an arrangement of atoms yet I prefer putting food in my mouth.

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same. Throw Dark Arts in three different places and change their icon via Macroicon for maximum nostalgia.

You want to make the Dark Knight unique and different, I am all for it, but you don't do that by taking three steps back and just plotting on the two fluff damage OGCds and the bleed that everyone had.

[Shurrikhan]

Ultimately, that's my issue with "Scourge Back, Reprisal Back, Low Blow back". It's like, really. You could cycle the animation on Dark Arts to include those three and it would effectively be the same.

No; no, you really couldn't.

Current Reprisal is by far superior to that Reprisal. You can certainly say that you plan for Old Reprisal, but that planning takes an element of chance. It is entirely possible to not parry in the prior time window so you can line it up, especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

For functionality, sure. For gameplay? For identity?

For what is your reprisal if you are not attacked? Why is it better not to have synergy between skills, like a Parry chance increase to go with your parry-based counter attack?

But it's okay, because it lasted 20 seconds. Odds are you can smash it and cover a majority of the "Plan to use it defensively and offensively" windows, and in the lethal times you don't, it's not like you weren't going to use a cooldown anyways.

I'll agree that the longer duration deemphasized skill-gap. But there was still enough that some of us knew when to hold onto it even in more casual content as to need a healer GCD fewer, without losing a use within the fight.

It being OGCD only cements it further. Just hit. There's no reason not to. You aren't guaranteed a parry in the coming window to extend its use, and waiting on it is just throwing potency down the drain.

Bhavacakra is an oGCD, with a CD that could cause holding onto it to cost you a cast within a fight. Yet most NINs do not invariably blow it on CD; they wait for their raid buffs and/or TA window if they're near enough to sync unless they're party performance has proven that they need to cast it immediately to get that extra cast in within the fight.

Haymaker's use is more that everything worth mentioning eventually became immune to everything.

Now this I'll totally agree with. Yes.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was a 30% slow, with a baseline potency of 170, no positional requirement. In other words, Haymaker on a Monk felt great when it was available, which is basically the opposite of Reprisal on Dark Knight for me. It took the worst part about playing melee (Something facing you) and let you bash it for near full positional power. It was a complete warping of the usual dynamic between DPS and enemy. Throw on Featherfoot and you haymaker this stupid thing in the face over and over again.

It was 20% and not affect the rate of specials, making it useful only against casters and purely auto-attack based physical mobs. Because auto-attacks continue to recharge over downtime, its effect was practically nullified by/during stuns and/or kiting, both of which you'd want to use in the same situations at which Haymaker would become at all useful (though not much even then).

Prior to the SB changes, 170 potency was the lowest ePot of Monk's entire toolkit. Snap Punch was 180. True Strike was 190. Bootshine was an effective 225, diminishing with Crit. Even a Dragon Kick and two GCDs other than with Demolish or Twin Snakes and three GCDs (or two with the full ticks of Demolish) outperformed it. If a Monk wanted to use no-positional stanceless GCD, it'd be more likely to use Impulse Drive, if taken, unless short on TP, as it was more reliably available. Haymaker's use over alternatives becomes more likely when co-tanking dungeons as Monk, as you'll want to keep Keen Flurry, Skull Sunder, and maybe even Hawkeye if low on accuracy for frontals.

A "useless" ability for raiding, sure, but a substantially powerful action outside of that. It had impact that you didn't have to check the Logs to confirm.

It had a low-metric impact that made it more open to faith than to science. Nonetheless, some did use it for a time, science-ing it out, and we did have the data to prove that it scarcely mattered except against very particular mobs in very niche situations.

This is the difference between the two abilities, but this is opinion. Just as yours is. That is why I opened with "We'll disagree here."

Data. We can have difference in uses and difference in goals. Neither will change its optimal performance, which is objective.

Reprisal was just another button to hit when it flashed up, same with lowblow. It was OGCD after all. The only thing lost with their removal was the animation (Huge) and where you push the button (Not huge). I don't miss it. At all. Not in that iteration. I miss the animation more than I miss the action, and admittedly, I miss counter attacks on Tank, but in this regard TBN / Blood Spiller / Quietus fill that thematic hole better than Reprisal ever did.

People do not project your low-effort play onto any and all DRK players. Both were often vital parts of my survival, and I used them accordingly. Please do not use false ultimatums; Bloodspiller, Quietus, and TBN are not mutually exclusive with the HW forms of Low Blow and Reprisal.

I miss the "useless" ability more because, as I said, it filled a glaring hole in the Monk's kit, both mechanically (Because content exists outside parties) and thematically (Why the hell does a Monk -not- have skills specialized for face beating?).

Which hole is that, specifically? I miss the concept of Haymaker, too. But I'd miss its place in the actual game a whole more if it hit like a truck relative to its cost as it did in 1.x--to the point I could and did viably tank 8-man content--but I, too, like the idea of melee being able to take advantage of being in the thick of it, and if only for brief moments, take advantage of calling attention onto themselves.

But, as it was, it supplied nothing to that theme. I could tank as well, if not better, without it. TP as a resource was essentially "how little must have to use Haymaker to TP when I need it?" And the answer was usually... about twice in the longest of pulls. If I absolutely needed to skip a stance without DoTing, while holding enmity, I could Skull Sunder for an effective 465 enmity-potency. Unless I was low TP and riding a sufficient margin to keep the mob off the healer and ensure specials were aimed out, I could only afford not to use it, but I couldn't well afford to use it.

tl;dr: While it's true that implementation of Low Blow and Reprisal could have been better to ensure their advantages were more visible to a broader audience, you're heavily projecting your own negligence or misunderstanding and asking us to be content with the fallout of changes made in ways that favored your personal preferences. Expect others to be a bit peeved. (Unless, you're just defending the development decisions... for the sake of it... despite that, again, there is nothing mutually exclusive between what already worked in HW and the successful DRK additions of Stormblood.)

[Lyth]

Could just be me, but I understood that post to mean "Don't copy over actions on to jobs simply for the purposes of giving that job a competitive equivalent." Which is very different from "Don't create an action that in any way resembles another action already in the game."

The former actually makes sense. Let's use the change to Shake it off in 4.2 as an example. The problem wasn't that Divine Veil was already in the game. If anything, I feel like Veil's design could be further improved on by taking notes from Shake it off, just like Shield Swipe was improved on by taking notes from HW Reprisal. If something works well from a design perspective, it makes sense to take note of it. The problem was that players went to the devs with Shake it off and said "We don't like this action, where is our Divine Veil equivalent?" The correct response to that is: "Why do you always need to have an equivalent?" The problem wasn't the end point. The problem was in the process.

The latter, of course, is so absurd that it's not even worth expending the effort of posting counter-examples. I think you actually made it harder for yourself by forcing yourself to prove that Reprisal was identical to Haymaker. The reason you had to omit mentioning Shield Swipe (which is the more obvious analogue than the obscure Haymaker) was because Swipe ended up being changed to become closer to Reprisal. The whole thing was an unnecessary stretch.

What was the easier response? Well, Reprisal, Delirium, and Scourge are all Actions. You press a button and something happens. Didn't other jobs have those first?

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think "DoT that's stronger potency per GCD than a Combo Line" was the niche here.

Why... why are using quotes, for something the person you're responding to never said nor implied?

Its Scourge, baseline, hit for slightly more than a Fell Cleave.

Fell Cleave. Y'know? That thing that was supposed to feel like a truck-sized hit? Felt really, really satisfying? I was not measuring Scourge against combo skills. Fell Cleave. Again? Fell Cleave.

EDIT: ...You even included the quote that said as much before strawmanning it. That's very disadvantageous to your strawman.

You know what sort of OGCDs -do- change things up?
Quick Reload. Do you hit it the moment it comes up, or do you wait to run your other ammo out so you can force another clean shot? The RNG nature of Machinist shots makes Quick Reload a minor but important decision in its use. Forcing another clean shot outweighs 25 potency, but only if done in a certain time frame.

Leylines. Commit, baby. 2000 IQ plays. See the future. Everything about getting a full Leylines off when you had no right to -feels fantastic-.

I hate Summoner, but respect where it's due. Trance feels fantastic, but that might be the Jelly Legs Black Mage speaking.

Any gap closer. Mobility feels good. Hitting things feels good. Hitting things while mobile feels -great-. Distance control is something I hope we see more of, and the Paladin not having an ally target variant will forever be a sore point for me.

And just for the counter intuitive one as well: Bard's fantastic because of one subtle aspect. It puts you into the beat, the songs it sings. How? Every time your poison procs you instinctively know the server tick timing. I can't tell you how badly I want that on Black Mage, but it's easy to lose, and who even watches DoTs, right? Bard's entirety is built around internal melody, and even though it's just a giant walking example of "Spam this !@#%ing OGCD", that one aspect alone is enough for it to get a pass. As stated: Respect where it's due. The OGCDs are directly related to that internal tune.

These are the types of abilities I want. Stuff that actively changes your approach, in that one moment.

So do I. I absolutely love those kinds of abilities.

But you're still applying a false ultimatum. None of those things added consequent to the removal of oGCDs that at least those posting to that effect here (or in so many other DRK threads made in complaint to such changes) DID already enjoy. Something with at least some benefit was removed. Nothing of benefit was added as a result of that. There were certainly no wonderful GCDs added in its place. Even the least direct potential merit, reduced button bloat, never panned out; by the end, it was increased. So why remove something of benefit without a compensating consequent benefit?

[Kabooa]

I think that is our primary disconnect.

When it comes to the tanks, I don't care much for the potency. I care about impact. Thinking on it further, that is the bigger sin with Reprisal compared to Low Blow. The impact isn't noticeable. It's a Dark Arts hit, and a damage debuff, but if the reduction doesn't save a healer GCD or prevent a death, it's not all that different from a Veil that breaks but you're still at 95% health.

I am an old mind tank. I'll play the tank they want me to here, but I wont' like it.

I won't lie and say big numbers don't get some childish glee (Black Mage For Life) but in this regard, Scourge fails. Because it's a DoT. It adds up to a big number, sure, but ultimately it's just a lot of little numbers.

Honestly, bring Scourge back as a 500 potency aoe Weaponskill that costs like 500 TP and I'll take that. If you found it fun to be a Cleave tank, then by golly, I'll sign off on that. The animation lines up for it, and it gives Dark Knights a TP dump between Blood and MP dumps.

[Sapphidia]

I'd like to see one of the tanks a lot MORE focussed on reactive procs. Reactive procs on being hit are one of the best ways of balancing the DPS output of a tank class, as you can load them up with high damage reactives to keep their DPS up when they're facing a boss, but then this DPS component gets taken away when they're just DPSing the back of a boss waiting to tank-swap in.

I'd like to bring up the design of the Guardian class in Lord of the Rings Online (at least how it was designed when I played it on release). I always felt like it was a very elegantly designed tank class as it solved a big problem with how you can have a tank hold threat when turtling but also do great damage solo without making DPS classes irrelevant. The Guardian was designed to use a Sword and Shield when tanking, and a two handed weapon when soloing. It had a large number of reactive skills that would only light up when you Blocked or Parried an attack.

The thing was, all of the "After a Block" skills were high threat, medium damage abilities that often used the shield to bash the target, whereas "After a Parry" skills were all high damage skills with no bonus threat. The choice was simple. When soloing you'd use a 2h weapon and your personal DPS was increased due to parrying attacks and using the parry reactive. However, you couldn't tank with a 2h weapon because so many threat-holding abilities needed you to be blocking with a shield. Also, because you needed to be attacked to proc a lot of these, you'd only hit your max dps output soloing when things attacked you. You couldn't take the DPS spot in a party because your damage would be lower when attacking things from the back. Conversely, when tanking you would be both blocking and parrying constantly, and it opened up the gameplay of "do i use a high threat block reactive or a high damage parry reactive".

A system like the above would work fantastically for a Paladin Oath redesign and a DRK grit redesign, as a possible alternative to feeling obliged to tank in Sword Oath or without Grit. A lot of people like the thematic idea of Sword Oath actually making the paladin put his shield on his back and use his sword in "hand-and-a-half" style, losing access to blocking and block reactives but gaining the sword oath procs. What if the Paladin was given enough high damage or high threat Block Reactives that they'd push out more dps tanking in Shield Oath than Sword, provided they were attacked frequently enough. You could even have entire combos of TP-efficient on-GCD skills that open up after blocks rather than just an off gcd push-when-it-lights-up button.

Parry Reactives for DRK just seem to be a thematic part of the class somehow... Reprisal may not have seemed interesting but it gave DRK an identity. If you wanted to get rid of Grit feeling like the crappy stance it is, make it simply an off-gcd toggle that only boosts threat, nothing else, or remove it entirely and make Blood Price generate threat when used. Then to make up the damage reduction loss, why not have a parry reactive that gives a personal damage reduction like Inner Beast. This would create an interesting dynamic where DRK doesnt necessarily have a "tank stance" - but when being attacked as long as it can force parry procs it can sustain an average damage reduction self buff. This would contrast with the Paladin's always-on Shield Oath reduction and the zero reduction for a Warrior that gets solved due to the "heal it back more easily" of Defiance.

Reactives are a GOOD THING, as long as they're done in an interesting and meaningful way, because they solve so many tank design issues:
- they translate defensive stats into offensive power. Block/parry more? Do more reactives. You could legitimately replace Tenacity with block/parry chance and have people want to use them.
- they allow tanks to do more damage when actually tanking so their design doesnt require them to output as much DPS as a DPS class on a static target
- they give variety and things that light up in a rotation that is always much simpler than DPS classes as tank kits have to be filled with "rarely used tools" like Sentinel and Divine Veil.

I 100% agree that the current implementation of Shield Swipe is boring. That doesnt mean that Reactives in general are bad. I think whilst Warrior has a really nice rotation that doesn't really need them, both PLD and DRK feel very clunky when it comes to swapping out of tank stance, and both of them feel thematically suited to being given 2-3 meaningful reactive skills each.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Reactive procs on being hit are one of the best ways of balancing the DPS output of a tank class, as you can load them up with high damage reactives to keep their DPS up when they're facing a boss, but then this DPS component gets taken away when they're just DPSing the back of a boss waiting to tank-swap in.

I strongly disagree. Players will inevitably lean towards maximizing the tanking uptime of the reactive tank, and how effective that strategy ends up being will have to depend upon the fight. Take O10S, for example. If the reactive tank happens to get more or less phases to tank, then its DPS will fluctuate accordingly; that's not balanced.

Reactive damage can be fun and interesting, but an over-reliance on it will inevitably cause major imbalance depending on the fight.

[Chrono_Rising]

1. Yes, I'm lamenting the loss of a counter attack with gameplay weight behind it. Just like I lament prior Shield Swipe. It's almost like these two actions represent a category we need more (Actions that take some thought) while old Reprisal and New Shield Swipe represent what we need less of (It lit, hit).

Haymaker had 0 weight behind it and you are once again over exaggerating this skill. I quickly polled a few people who main monk, of the 10 people I asked 7 I had to remind what it was, 2 of the remaining thought it was still in the game but didn’t realize because they wouldn’t put it on their hot bar, and 1 went as far to say oh yeah, that trash move that was removed.
Real engaging gameplay. I’m sure we could make a monk post on a dps forum and see how many people want the move back, I’m almost positive no one misses it besides you.

2. !@#% in stormblood !#@%ing hurt. A 20% slow is significant when you aren't plodding around in plate armor. I used lethargy because I -didn't- MSQ stormblood as monk, so the amount of my face being punched was on -Black Mage-, but one can easily extrapolate that desire to wanting something to punch you in the face less to another Job that had an appropriate response to said face punching.

I have 4 alts all of which have made it through stormblood. No, it doesn’t hurt, and its really easy to get through all the content. Eureka you can make a case for things hitting hard and needing to get away. Yet another exaggeration.

3. I said parry procs aren't guaranteed to happen. Which is why you -likely hit the ability the moment it flashes up-. At most waiting until the end of the current timer. Which based on the amount of times you hit the ability in the time frame given is likely what happened. "Context."

The context isn’t what you make it up to be, its what was said. Since you seem to forget what you say so easily here is the quote I refer to.

… especially since the Parry stat was avoided like the plague, and even with Dark Dance, you're looking at a more-often-than-not just not parrying.

I used an example of getting 7 reprisals in a 3:45 second to dismiss this idea that it was difficult to get the majority of them. The point of this is not to prove that it is not just a “use it skill” it is to show that it is way more reliable than you are making it out to be.

4. Given the absurdly high uptime on it, we can move forward in Stormblood knowing that encounters are designed around the lack of near permanent 10% reductions. Reprisal in its current form is superior as it no longer relies upon parries to activate, it is useful against all damage, and it can be tailored specifically around where your party struggles most.

A good part of this is useless information: (1) you could always try to save it to put it up for where you needed it and (2) it was always useful against all damage so neither of these points are meaningless except as fluff. Current reprisal is good because you don’t need to set it up or plan for it in advance. You can use it, it is convenient and easy. That’s it. Old reprisal covered more damage when used properly.

5. Salted earth functions in an enemy centric fashion that Leylines does to Black Mage. It creates a specific area you play around and work with. The target's movement and mechanics that in turn force you to move play around this -gameplay-, that this zone you have thrown down is of interest to you for whatever reason, and -adds consideration-. It is entirely possible to miss some or all the benefit by hitting Salted earth the moment it comes up.

Ah so if the gimmick is keep the enemy in the circle it is engaging, if it is work out where to plan to use it and work to set it up then its useless. I find it ironic that you don’t see how arbitrary your lines are.

Reprisal is "It's lit, hit". Your own anecdote shows that. Even if you missed a tank buster, or a raid wide, or a high auto attack segment, odds are as long as you hit the button you gained almost all the benefit regardless of the timing.

Again, my point was to refute your idea that parry procs were somehow rare and we were unlikely to get the proc. There are multiple examples of turns where you would consider delaying your reprisal set up to line up with a mechanic or 1 minute and 3 minute buffs.

FoFi and Reqqy Cat can be removed without any real detriment, sure, but that's more equitable to Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and otherwise any other % increase than it is to Dark Arts. They really just serve as giant signs saying "Do this now." and if they didn't exist, Paladin would still play the same, just like Dragoon and Bard would play the same sans Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

The point being that pressing and timing these buttons in play is enjoyable to people. You might not like it as you have said multiple times but your logic will essentially reduce the game to removing all oGCD actions that aren’t “push now” buttons. While fine the GCD will come out as slow boring and get stale quick.

Darks Arts by contrast is ultimately part of the Dark Knight's resource management game. FoFi is not. I personally wouldn't say Reqqy Cat is of the same importance to Paladin's, mainly because if Reqqy Cat didn't exist, you'd still cast the same number of Holy Spirits, just at different times. (But probably still all in Trick Attack windows so what really changed)

More arbitrary lines. There is no reason dark knightneeds to manage mp. We manage mp simply by the design of the game, this could just as easily be removed and replaced with anything else much like blood is spent through mostly GCD actions, the only exception being delirium.

Here's the thing. -I don't find Dark Arts spam appealing-. I just don't see the merit in moving the button press two slots over and calling it something else. This is at best a lateral shift and at worst regression.

(1)Broke up spam of dark arts (2) had other uses besides damage (3) did involve some planning and shifting at higher levels of play. Just because you didn’t doesn’t mean others did the same.

6. This discussion is between you and me, so those other people should not factor in. Because "Numerous people" who do and numerous people who don't want them back exist here, as well as numerous people who don't care one lick one way or the other, and numerous people who didn't like HW Dark Knight, and numerous people who did, so on and so forth.

Yes, and yet you continue to come back with just flat wrong information and exaggerations of the usefulness of abilities like haymaker.
First we couldn’t have reprisal because its just a haymaker clone (it isn’t and even if it was it was done better than haymaker in terms of actually being put to use).
Then it was just bonus fluff built into the encounter damage formula and so made useless. A fact that you provide no back up for.
Now it’s a “just use immediately” button that had no other purposes. I point out that it does have other uses (holding briefly to time the hit, delaying to line up with buff windows, and oGCD enmity when needed) and that goes ignored. Its not just about opinions, opinions should be based on something.

All of these reasons boil down to “I don’t like it because I used it this way”, perhaps the issue wasn’t the skill, perhaps it was the way it was being used. Personally, I enjoy the multipurpose tool, and I enjoyed trying to time may abilities to fit into certain windows that would have more impact on my raid with reprisal. I enjoyed the not knowing it would proc and having to actively look for procs and resets. I enjoyed HW dark knight. I would like to see a class like it make a comeback. HW dark knight didn’t have super hard hitting windows, what it had was multiple little hits that ended up adding up, and that was a playstyle I enjoyed. Much like Monks enjoy that fast nature of GL, that play style of multiple oGCD actions lighting up and resetting at different times was entertaining and even at times felt chaotic as I tried to double weave.

You are allowed to want something different, you are allowed to want something streamlined to just be 1 button spamming. Others are allowed to ask for the old style to be returned. Yes, they are often times mutually exclusive. But lets at least not pretend its because haymaker is the only viable counter attack with debuff allowed in the game and it is a tragedy that its been removed.