Concise Tank Balance Changes

[NocturniaUzuki]

As a healer main who decided to browse the tank forum, this being the first thread I see is depressing as hell.

Veil and Shake, useless? Do you have any idea how much of a difference that much mitigation can make? Removing those likely makes solo healing O11S on WHM impossible (Delta Attack leaves my party at sub-10% with Veil and PoA active). It also makes countless other situations cost an extra AoE heal, raising MP costs to an extent that solo healing becomes next to impossible without dedicated DPS giving you MP 24/7. But based on your views, I expect you see those as useless too?

My taking flak for suggesting things like the old Spear were useful because they had uses in non-mainstream content is one thing. But suggesting something that messes up mainstream solo healing to such an extent and consequently also impacts healers' ability to contribute DPS to the raid (if you're one of those DPS-is-all-that-matters people) is ridiculous.

I get that maybe you feel that the tanks are unbalanced right now. I can't really comment on it, since I don't know enough about tanks. But what I can tell you is that I don't value one tank over another, as a healer. Doubling up tanks can be an issue, since you lose access to their full party resources. But every tank brings something to the fight that is really awesome. DPS-aside, playing with a well-played PLD is a joy, as a healer. WAR and DRK too, depending on the circumstances. WAR's HP is invaluable, as is its ability to bring down adds that much faster. DRK is amazing for single-target mitigation and dealing with tank busters.

Some other examples of how removing Shake and Veil would affect me as a WHM on mainstream content:

O10S Akh Morn during Exas would likely require an extra swiftcasted-heal to solo heal through, at the cost of ~1680MP.

O11S Big Fists into Electric Slide might be impossible (I currently do it with Largesse > PoM > Sprint > SC > get stunned > sprint to mid + SC Medica II > Cure III > Cure III > Plenary Indulgence; however, this rotation relies on tank shields for the Electric Slide - might be able to get away with it if I used Medica instead, but then I may miss people with the AoE (15y vs 20y) and I would have to Medica II again after the second Cure III to apply regens).

O11S Pantokrators would cost at least an extra 1680 MP each.

O9S Earthquake #1 would require ~1680-2200 extra MP.

Those differences may not sound like a lot, but MP is already tight on those fights as is, even with carefully planned Thin Airs to cut the largest MP costs.

[Lyth]

I think the broader question at stake here is what role do the developers want tanks to play in raid-wide mitigation. It's either an essential function or it's not.

In Heavensward, every tank had a raid-wide mitigation move. WAR had Path, DRK had Reprisal, and PLD had Veil. Stormblood changed all that. Now every tank has Reprisal, WAR has Shake, and PLD has Veil and PoA. Not every tank is capable of providing the same level of raid-wide mitigation. That's fine from a flavour perspective, but you can't design content which requires you to have access to all those abilities. After all, you're not getting Shake and Veil if you bring a DRK. And personally, I think that's fine. You want the tanks to feel different.

The problem with Veil and Shake, however, is not mitigation. Notice that nobody pointed a finger at Passage of Arms. Veil and Shake are unique in that they are both barrier shields. Barrier shield effects have a significant impact on limit break gauge generation. This means faster clear times, and better party dps. The problem is that these are functionally covert raid dps buffs, and everyone wants access to those. The solution isn't necessarily remove these skills or shift all the burden of mitigating raidwides on to healers. The solution is to completely remove the limit gauge generation associated with barrier shields.

[NocturniaUzuki]

I think the broader question at stake here is what role do the developers want tanks to play in raid-wide mitigation. It's either an essential function or it's not.

In Heavensward, every tank had a raid-wide mitigation move. WAR had Path, DRK had Reprisal, and PLD had Veil. Stormblood changed all that. Now every tank has Reprisal, WAR has Shake, and PLD has Veil and PoA. Not every tank is capable of providing the same level of raid-wide mitigation. That's fine from a flavour perspective, but you can't design content which requires you to have access to all those abilities. After all, you're not getting Shake and Veil if you bring a DRK. And personally, I think that's fine. You want the tanks to feel different.

The problem with Veil and Shake, however, is not mitigation. Notice that nobody pointed a finger at Passage of Arms. Veil and Shake are unique in that they are both barrier shields. Barrier shield effects have a significant impact on limit break gauge generation. This means faster clear times, and better party dps. The problem is that these are functionally covert raid dps buffs, and everyone wants access to those. The solution isn't necessarily remove these skills or shift all the burden of mitigating raidwides on to healers. The solution is to completely remove the limit gauge generation associated with barrier shields.

I had no idea about the LB generation. I'd have no issue with removing that generation though.

P.S. Not everyone wants access to raid-DPS buffs. I don't particularly care about DPS. In my view, if you clear a fight before enrage, you can't really claim to know the fight. Because you only know it up to the point you clear. :S.... (I am guilty of this too)

[Jollyy5]

Out of the three tanks, WAR is my favorite -precisely- because of the aesthetics, WAR draws its power from an inner beast, and in my opinion SE has nailed that beastly fighting style to a T.

Despite the changes to WAR's kit since 4.0, I'm still of the opinion that WAR is no easier to play than PLD when it comes to DPS rotations, so I don't understand why people keep saying WAR is the faceroll tank.

PLD used to be the boring faceroll tank with their 1-2-3 combo and boring visuals, which changed in HW and further so in SB, thank god.

Anyway, I think the balance is pretty alright between PLD and WAR, they both have a pretty nice flow with PLD having a little more utility. But as for DRK, it's just way too complex and involved class to play optimally which is also negatively affected by latency due to all the oGCD weaving required (looking at you, Dark Arts spam), which I believe to be big part of the reason why DRK is so unpopular.

I think tanks shouldn't be too complex to play in general since you are oftentimes delegated to spotting and calling out mechanics, giving you less time to focus on mitigating damage and surveying the field, especially during progression and PUGs.

[shao32]

Anyway, I think the balance is pretty alright between PLD and WAR, they both have a pretty nice flow with PLD having a little more utility. But as for DRK, it's just way too complex and involved class to play optimally which is also negatively affected by latency due to all the oGCD weaving required (looking at you, Dark Arts spam), which I believe to be big part of the reason why DRK is so unpopular.

I think tanks shouldn't be too complex to play in general since you are oftentimes delegated to spotting and calling out mechanics, giving you less time to focus on mitigating damage and surveying the field, especially during progression and PUGs.

DRK was equaly harder to play or even more in HW and was the most popular tank, what makes DRK unpopular now is how SE take almost everything from his identity and dint get anything to compensate or is being replaced by dark arts spam + underperforming compared to the other 2 ends killing DRK pick rates.

[RopeDrink]

Healers and Tanks are presently suffering similar issues. If you're going by the "Utility vs Damage" mantra, then there's even less reason to understand why both SCH and AST presently outperform WHM in terms of both healing AND damage considering WHM brings the least utility. I actually began my FFXIV adventure back in the day as Paladin - levelling was safe, but a total slog, and so many videos in certain parts of the game (when played from a PLD PoV) were laughable material in-so-far as people found it amusing to watch a PLD try to damage their way through content. Having said that, there is no denying their utility. Whether they are in a good place, I'll leave for others to debate, but so long as they have utility seeping from every pour, they can be forgiven for not being DPS beasts.

As a WHM main, I loathe getting DRK tanks, even if just because Holy conflicts with their kit, forcing either to be more timely for no other reason than AoE stuns are a detriment to one of their buttons. Furthermore, of all the tanks, DRK's present the biggest YoYo's for me in the majority of cases. As for Warrior - LimitGen aside - I don't understand why SiO has raised any ire, aside from it making little sense how a Warrior is contributing a barrier that can only be categorized as magic. SiO may not be the most pressed button I have across various classes, but I use that far more than I would certain other buttons - I certainly wouldn't like to see it removed 'just because', but the LimitGen aspect can go.

The damage-type aspect was a dead duck. I really don't want it to go back to the whole "Physical Tank, Magical Tank, All-Round Tank" trope as this will simply conflict on a per-fight basis. Same can be said for damage/resistance debuffs. They don't have to be outright removed, but so long as things exist where having/not-having X is a benefit/detriment over alternatives, then there will always be a grey issue overhanging said classes. On that note, it makes no sense to me why Tanks would provide such debuffs anyways. Either way, I won't pretend like I have any balance-suggestions.

[Lyth]

[...]

It's not utility vs. damage.

One thing that features heavily into NA/EU players decisions is personal dps. So anything that you can do to improve another player's dps and make them look better is going to become extremely desirable. For example, Piercing may be "just" a 5% buff. But the general perception is that you must bring a DRG in order to properly play BRD or MCH. So when it comes to recruiting a melee dps, your static's BRD is going to be pushing hard for a DRG, even if it means picking a player who is clearly less competent (but still able to clear).

The end result is that you have certain jobs that are viewed as "must haves" when optimising your play. You must have a NIN for TA. You must have an AST for Balance. It doesn't really matter if these players are particularly good. What matters is that they are competent at applying the buffs to you. Problem is, I don't think this attitude necessarily carries over to the JP playerbase, which is why the devs are completely out of touch with the concept.

The core problem with WHM is that AST is perceived as "WHM with cards". So even if you want to be a WHM main, you're bound to have that conversation. You know the one I'm talking about: "Hey, you're pretty good at healing on WHM, do you want to, you know, give AST a shot so that we can get those sweet, sweet Balance procs? They're not that different, after all." So you either switch or are left with the feeling that you're letting down your teammates.

That's not to say that I dislike raid dps buffs in general. I think they're fantastic. They encourage coordination. It actually makes it feel like a team game. As a side point, I feel that the UI should do more to communicate raid buffs to the team (i.e. Trick Attack available, Trick attack used). It happens over voice regardless, but it helps bring that coordination and synergy over to PUG conditions.

What I do detest are raid dps buffs that have 100% uptime. These do absolutely nothing for gameplay. They just tell you that you must bring a particular job. Which is incredibly shortsighted, given that the several of the jobs that bring these buffs (WAR, NIN, DRG) DO NOT require additional reasons to be mandatory picks. Five years is enough. End it with fire.

Shake this off
I don't think there's a problem with Shake intrinsically. The backlash was over how it happened. In Heavensward, WAR and SCH were viewed as essential jobs. During the interviews leading into Stormblood, the devs identified the problem as coming from their versatility. Stormblood was supposedly going to fix tank and healer balance.

In fairness, the start of Stormsblood wasn't all that bad. WAR had some new costs associated with tank swapping, but then again, that was the standard for every other tank previously. WAR and DRK were about 50 dps apart (advantage WAR), despite our STR accessories shenanigans. PLD's dps was probably tuned a bit too high, but I suspect that the devs didn't want to repeat the mistake of making PLD a dps liability a second time around, and they probably didn't anticipate that we'd be using i270 STR accessories.

The problem was that a small, but vocal minority of players campaigned with the idea that WAR's "lack of utility" should be compensated for with higher dps. The problem with the 4.2 rework is that the devs overcompensated and did both. WAR got a substantial dps rework, resulting in it gaining anywhere between a 200-500 dps advantage in fights, became significantly higher reward for lower effort, and became the first job in this game's history to have an action completely changed simply because players complained about it. Oh no, an action that doesn't do a whole lot outside of pure niche flavour. It's not like we haven't seen that ever before, on other jobs. You could fill the Ruby Sea twice over with the tears that were shed.

It's like the devs seem to think that if people aren't 100% happy with WAR or SCH, the tanking and healing population will disappear off the map. But it's actually the reverse. These jobs are talked about because they're powerful. That in turn makes them popular, which in turn makes them continue to receive the lion's share of the focus from the dev team. I suppose everyone is different, but I didn't come into a Final Fantasy game with the intention of playing a World of Warcraft barbarian. Especially when there hasn't been a single protagonist in the 30+ year history of the series who specifically uses an axe as a primary weapon (there are more characters who use Anchors as weapons, by comparison).

People weren't angry about Shake it off because the ability change was bad. On the contrary. A HP boost would probably be more thematic, but there are some equally bad offenders out there on WAR. If anything, I think Veil should follow a similar approach and simply apply the shield when you activate it, instead of requiring a heal proc. The reason why people hated the change was because it's become part of a systemic, five-year long bias towards a job which, conceptually, doesn't deserve to be all that special given the series history.

You won't win over more people to tanking with more WARs and more Fell Cleaves. If anything, you'll drive people away. You'll win them over with more options, better gameplay, and more interesting, tank-focused mechanics.

Physical Tank, Magical Tank
I know this was a theme in Heavensward, but this is a meaningless, fake identity. If you can clear content on a given tank, excess mitigation doesn't really count for all that much. The idea was that you'd switch between DRK and PLD based on the predominant type. In reality, the only fight that I switched to PLD for in HW was in A7S, because 2nd cat phase was a pretty tough healing check in prog, and Hallowed was just that much safer than Living Dead.

I think if the devs want to differentiate between physical and magical attacks, it should be done at the role actions level. It would be interesting to see tanks in prog try to guess what the main tankbuster type is, and adjust their role actions accordingly. I think the Protect/Shell duality could be interesting as well, especially if we started to see physical raid-wide AoEs. It certainly would be more interesting than the present implementation of Protect of "something that you're forced to cast before every pull."

[Derio]

Honestly they need to get rid of the mp cost of changing or applying stances.

Simply give DRK a group mitigation tool or get rid of the ones on PLD and WAR to balance things out.

Slashing debuff from WAR needs to be removed, especially since they got rid of PLD str down and DRK int down debuffs.

However I think WAR will continue to be the golden child in 5.0 and we will see tank balance continue to suffer whether they add a new tank or not.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Slashing debuff from WAR needs to be removed, especially since they got rid of PLD str down and DRK int down debuffs.

Errr... while I agree that resistence type debuffs (slashing, piercing, blunt) should go, you seem to associate Rage of Halone's STR down and Delirium's INT down wrongly. WAR's equivalent (or should I say flat out better version) was Storm's Path's -10% damage down - a debuff so meta that it basically enforced WAR in every comp; you'd get laughed at if you tried to run DRK PLD. Apart from working both physical and magical, it also worked for dark type / true damage (forced damage mechanics).

Slashing can hardly be associated with anything the other tanks have or had.

[Chrono_Rising]

Reprisal and Haymaker are not direct analogs. Haymaker was a counter attack, but a poor choice of one in most pve party settings. It was a dps loss, the slow didn't apply to most enemies, and cost a GCD which lowers the feel of it being a counter-attack. I don't pvp, so maybe it had uses there, but outside of solo play in pve a counter attack based on dodging on a class that shouldn't be getting hit doesn't make much sense, especially given the rarity of dodging mechanics that register as a dodge. Reprisal made sense on dark knight, oGCD, dps increase, debuff damage mitigation, and increased enmity, all of which are nice tools to have on a tank job with tools which increased its proc rate. Monk having something which "resembled" reprisal first is not an argument when the thing it resembled did it well. Even shield swipe was retooled to be oGCD to more directly resemble reprisal, which is the closer analog in my mind anyway (though again the pacification debuff does little in most content.)

The original post didn't list these things but I'll list a few other examples of rewarding HW skills: parry procs on low blow representing a second way of counter attacking, synergy between dark dance (defensive fluff mitigation) and increased low blow and parry procs, having a non-dark arts combo to weave dark arts through oGCD actions, blood price being an dps cooldown for when you are actively tanking regardless of stance (again playing on that counter attack theme), synergy in defensive skills like increasing your evasion and blinding enemies, multiple debuffs (delrium, scourage salted earth, reprisal, blind) on a class which has thematically been about enfeeblement.

I have said this in a number of places, but the things the dark knight playerbase complained about in HW were things like the stance locks on souleater hp steal, stance lock on blood weapon, anti-synergy on skills like blind and blood price, or evasion and blood price. Stormblood brought us more stance locks on abilities, and removed a number of the feedback mechanisms that made the the job feel engaging and active without feeling like spam. It is as if people's feedback was heard, but completely backwards.