Let us Dye Normal Raid gear

[Melichoir]

Every mmo in the last 5-10 years has some level of distinction between "Raider" and "Casual" Tier when it comes to loot. In FFXIV, its going to be dyeable versions. It's done this way as a quick and easily identifiable way to say "Yeah, I cleared it and got the armor." It is bragging rights, broadly. If you make the regular version dyeable, You remove that quick and easily seen bragging right from players who are doing the content.

"But who cares about their bragging rights! Internet points are stupid!"

Problem is, people do like to show off their accomplishments, and status is a thing. If you make it so that there is no distinction visually from raiders and casuals, a lot of raiders will simply say "Screw it, why do the content when I can just phone it in on the regular side and pretty much reap the same rewards". At that point, having savage/extreme gear only matters for the sake of doing more savage and nothing else. On that model, people will more frequently not apply the effort since its self fulfilling. At least with it currently, people who want a glamour reward to show off and have something they can customize will put the effort in.

[Edax]

Every mmo in the last 5-10 years has some level of distinction between "Raider" and "Casual" Tier when it comes to loot. In FFXIV, its going to be dyeable versions. It's done this way as a quick and easily identifiable way to say "Yeah, I cleared it and got the armor." It is bragging rights, broadly. If you make the regular version dyeable, You remove that quick and easily seen bragging right from players who are doing the content.

"But who cares about their bragging rights! Internet points are stupid!"

Problem is, people do like to show off their accomplishments, and status is a thing. If you make it so that there is no distinction visually from raiders and casuals, a lot of raiders will simply say "Screw it, why do the content when I can just phone it in on the regular side and pretty much reap the same rewards". At that point, having savage/extreme gear only matters for the sake of doing more savage and nothing else. On that model, people will more frequently not apply the effort since its self fulfilling. At least with it currently, people who want a glamour reward to show off and have something they can customize will put the effort in.

And yet some have pointed out on this thread, the players that wants dyeable armor and the players that wants to do Savage are very different. If I just started doing Savage because I wanted the dyeable armor, but I don't care doing Savage at all properly, then I'm going to be dragging down a team that actually wants to be there.

[Vaer]

Once upon a time there was no normal version of the 8 man raid. People complained that they couldn't see the story so they added normal raids in HW with an undyeable set of lower ilvl gear and sometimes minion and furniture materials to incentivize people to do it more than once.

Now we want the dyeable set, too!

And yet some have pointed out on this thread, the players that wants dyeable armor and the players that wants to do Savage are very different. If I just started doing Savage because I wanted the dyeable armor, but I don't care doing Savage at all properly, then I'm going to be dragging down a team that actually wants to be there.

Well, you wouldn't get very far with an attitude like that which means you wouldn't get it anyway while it was current. After you can unsync it you can go get it then. It's really just a timed exclusive. So it isn't like you are barred forever from ever getting it, you just gotta wait just like how you can faceroll some of the EX primal mounts and older savage raids now. If you don't want to wait, do the content.

[Edax]

Once upon a time there was no normal version of the 8 man raid. People complained that they couldn't see the story so they added normal raids in HW with an undyeable set of lower ilvl gear and sometimes minion and furniture materials to incentivize people to do it more than once.

Now we want the dyeable set, too!



Well, you wouldn't get very far with an attitude like that which means you wouldn't get it anyway while it was current. After you can unsync it you can go get it then. It's really just a timed exclusive. So it isn't like you are barred forever from ever getting it, you just gotta wait just like how you can faceroll some of the EX primal mounts and older savage raids now. If you don't want to wait, do the content.

As I'm pointing out, nearly all of the playerbase wants their armor to be dyeable because it is so universal. The savage playerbase does not encompass all of the playerbase that wants their gear dyeable. By gating such a universe thing such as dyeing behind Savage, you create a subsection of the playerbase who is interested in one, but not the other. This is not a good way make an incentive, as it will draw in the wrong kind of players in Savage.

[Vaer]

As I'm pointing out, nearly all of the playerbase wants their armor to be dyeable because it is so universal. The savage playerbase does not encompass all of the playerbase that wants their gear dyeable. By gating such a universe thing such as dyeing behind Savage, you create a subsection of the playerbase who is interested in one, but not the other. This is not a good way make an incentive, as it will draw in the wrong kind of players in Savage.

And like I said, it's not forever locked to the "raiders". It gets nerfed so everyone can get it eventually including people who don't care for challenge and want glamour items. The only PvE exception is Ultimate but those weapons are supposed to be trophies and who knows they might change their minds on it later anyway. If you want it when it's new, you do the content.

I don't think SE cares if it's a good incentive, just that it is one. It might get some people to try it if they want the stuff. Guess why they keep putting stuff in PvP and shoving it down our throats?

[Vidu]

And yet some have pointed out on this thread, the players that wants dyeable armor and the players that wants to do Savage are very different. If I just started doing Savage because I wanted the dyeable armor, but I don't care doing Savage at all properly, then I'm going to be dragging down a team that actually wants to be there.

They dont have to be different though?
You make it sound as if no one who raids cares about the gear being dyeable.

As I explained earlier already: The dyeable gear is one incentive to raid. People are different and different incentives speak to different people. And more than one incentive can speak to you.
I raid because I like the challenge, spend time with my friends/static this way while working on a common goal and this time around because I actually want the dyeable version of the gear. Its not my only reason, but it is one reason.

Back in Coil my main reason to raid was the story - and people who didnt want to put the effort into raiding complained and the story got put into NM. That, along with the terrible design of the first HW-raid killed my motivation to raid.

Unless you can bring me some hard numbers that prove your claim of raiders not caring about glamour, my anecdotal experience is as good as yours.
And that is: 95% of people in this game care about glamour and the other 5% must have missed the sidequest. Even though I'm raiding, I care more about my looks than my ilvl - so much infact that I used to wear (slightly) inferior gear back in ARR because it looked better (back when we couldnt glamour).
I care more about being able to dye that tankcoat from O12 than about it being ilvl400.

And frankly, it doesnt matter why someone decides they wanna do savage, as long as they play properly. Wanting dyeable gear is a totally legit goal here.

[Tsumdere]

And yet some have pointed out on this thread, the players that wants dyeable armor and the players that wants to do Savage are very different. If I just started doing Savage because I wanted the dyeable armor, but I don't care doing Savage at all properly, then I'm going to be dragging down a team that actually wants to be there.

And this is why you don't already have your dyable Genta top.

[Edax]

And this is why you don't already have your dyable Genta top.

LOL, you really felt you needed to explain that to me?

/sarcasm I don't do Savage because I don't like Savage...there must be a connection here! Some clue as to why I don't have all the Savage rewards!

[Melichoir]

And yet some have pointed out on this thread, the players that wants dyeable armor and the players that wants to do Savage are very different. If I just started doing Savage because I wanted the dyeable armor, but I don't care doing Savage at all properly, then I'm going to be dragging down a team that actually wants to be there.

I would argue that only a small handful of savage players wouldnt care about dyeable versions being available from normal modes. And even then, it is not mutually exclusive to other motivations. Peoples armor and its ability to be dyed is a perk that a lot of savage raiders like due to its a literal sign saying "Yes, I cleared this content." It is the exact same reason why other glamours, such as those from the Ultimates, are not available for completing the normal modes. They are status symbols, and if you remove that from raiders, I hazard many of them will actually be quite mad about it.

You want that dyeable gear, do the harder content. Work for it. IF its really worth it to you, youll learn the fights, work your butt off, and get it. But as it stands, the idea you should be rewarded with specialty glamour on the virtue of completing average difficulty content, and then telling raiders "Oh, you dont need anything special for your endeavors," is a bit silly and self entitled. Be a better player and get rewarded. Thats how it works.

LOL, you really felt you needed to explain that to me?

/sarcasm I don't do Savage because I don't like Savage...there must be a connection here! Some clue as to why I don't have all the Savage rewards!

Yeah, but what youre suggesting is this: "Im to lazy to learn to do the content, So Im going to petition SE to change the system to suit my tastes and desires at the direct expense of better players." And youre trying to justify it by saying "Well everyone likes dyeable armor, so everyone should have it!"

The catch is that yes, everyone likes it, so people should be motivated to do harder content, and Savage raiders then do it and get the armor. There is no limitation to you getting what you want, except what you deem as being worthwhile. If you wanted it bad enough, youd put in the work. Instead you dont want to work, and are requesting SE give you the 'good stuff' while not putting in effort and expecting the Savage raiders to just be like "Nah, its totally fine that you guys get the same stuff we do for a fraction of the effort.

[Edax]

I would argue that only a small handful of savage players wouldnt care about dyeable versions being available from normal modes. And even then, it is not mutually exclusive to other motivations. Peoples armor and its ability to be dyed is a perk that a lot of savage raiders like due to its a literal sign saying "Yes, I cleared this content." It is the exact same reason why other glamours, such as those from the Ultimates, are not available for completing the normal modes. They are status symbols, and if you remove that from raiders, I hazard many of them will actually be quite mad about it.

You want that dyeable gear, do the harder content. Work for it. IF its really worth it to you, youll learn the fights, work your butt off, and get it. But as it stands, the idea you should be rewarded with specialty glamour on the virtue of completing average difficulty content, and then telling raiders "Oh, you dont need anything special for your endeavors," is a bit silly and self entitled. Be a better player and get rewarded. Thats how it works.

And I'm saying that the devs can find different, perhaps better rewards for Savage players. Just locking the dye option on the normal gear is the laziest way to develop the reward system. I think it's a bit far fetched to say it's entitlement to want to dye our gear, it's such a basic mechanic that's found everywhere in the game.