State of the Game: The Problem with the Current Progression System

[Gemina]

I don't really see an issue with FFXIV's progression system. I know some players have a problem with it, but that doesn't make it flawed. Why do you feel a capped character has plateaued? And has it truly plateaued? All jobs capped, and maxed out in gear? Got all your EX clears and primal mounts? How about your DoH and DoL? You ever get your blessed tools? How about the one for FSH that VERY few peeps in the game actually have? How's your achievement log? Sightseeing log?

Now, I understand that not all of these activities are for everyone, but if some of these are your thing, can you imagine still trying to get them done while staying caught up while your less interested buddies continue to progress further and further away from you because it's endless? I already feel this now with a level cap because I started late, and my playstyle just won't allow me to catch up to everyone. My activities in the game are far too dispersed.

A merit system could be good or bad I suppose. I see good things because it can keep older content active, but I also see bad as I think it would bring down the desire to level other jobs. I suppose it just depends on how it is set up. It definitely can't impact gameplay, but if a merit system could bring some welcome QoL changes I don't see an issue with it.

While I know you're just brainstorming you have to try to foresee the impact even a small change can have. As an example, merit points that allow increased movement speed outside combat seems benign, but underneath that silky exterior takes away movement speed gimmicks that belong to bard and ninja.

Your posting a lot of content desiring changes to the game, and I have to wonder if you enjoy playing FFXIV anymore dude. Not all change is needed, welcome, or good. While I think the devs should continue to add to the game; this is different than desiring actual changes and the additions you propose will unquestionably change the game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I don't really see an issue with FFXIV's progression system. I know some players have a problem with it, but that doesn't make it flawed. Why do you feel a capped character has plateaued? And has it truly plateaued? All jobs capped, and maxed out in gear? Got all your EX clears and primal mounts? How about your DoH and DoL? You ever get your blessed tools? How about the one for FSH that VERY few peeps in the game actually have? How's your achievement log? Sightseeing log?

And if people aren't interested in Gathering or Crafting? This game offers a punishingly lack of repeatable content that isn't a pointless grind. Look no further than achievements. They aren't interesting nor do they offer any rewards. It's generic "complete 10,000 FATEs!" One of the reasons Mythic+ excelled in WoW is it gave people a reason to continuously spam dungeons. Now if they actually used the Achievement token system which replaced Veteran Rewards, it could be the start of something decent. Instead, it's been left to rot after adding a single mount in almost a year. There simply isn't much to do in this game unless you like everything. If battle content is your preference, you'll cap in a day or two and be done with it. EX Primals and Savage adds to your weekly activity, however if you lack the time or desire to raid, you have little else to bother with each week.

A prime example came in 4.3. Yoshida outright said they delayed Heaven on High because of how much content was being released. What did we get?

- Handful of MSQ quests
- Swallow's Compass
- Ridorana
- Tsukiyomi
- Namazu
- Kurenai

All of this could be easily completed over a weekend even at a gradual pace. Only Ridorano and Tsukiyomi are something you farm regularly. And unless you were interested in Ultimate, this is all you had to do for six weeks. That just isn't good enough.

[Nariel]

New job ? New races ? Get back our third dungeon/patch ? Secondary quest a bit more challenging than playing pizza delivery ? Real relic quest ? New feature that don't work only on brainless grind/fate ?

[Delmontyb]

New job ? New races ? Get back our third dungeon/patch ? Secondary quest a bit more challenging than playing pizza delivery ? Real relic quest ? New feature that don't work only on brainless grind/fate ?

All of this is great, but also the way the game is all of this will eventually become dead content... from a resource and time cost, there needs to be some investment in dynamic difficulty to all of this, there is no development team on earth that can keep up with our demand and our ability to consume said content.

Having a type of paragon system/unlimited progression is a way to keep value with the content we currently already have, but it's just one piece of the puzzle.

[Kirsten_Rev]

New job ? New races ? Get back our third dungeon/patch ? Secondary quest a bit more challenging than playing pizza delivery ? Real relic quest ? New feature that don't work only on brainless grind/fate ?

These are great ideas, but most of them do not address the desires of people who are seeking single-character progression.

I'm one such player. I want long-term goals that offer tangible in-game benefits. And by long-term, I mean years, not months. I want something that helps me feel invested in my character, something that helps me feel like another person at level 70 with the same gear might not be an exact carbon copy of me. There are some elements of this in the game right now; one great example is Desynthesis levels for crafters. Those require significant effort to accrue (naturally anyway; obviously people can spend huge sums of Gil to do it faster). They offer tangible benefits, but nothing game-breaking. Great. Another lesser example is the faster Mount speed items from Hunts; getting all of them (particularly for ARR areas) required a good bit of time spent.

The problem is that there aren't enough elements like this. Virtually all of the grinds are centered around Glamours or rapidly-invalidated gear, which for me at least, does not deliver the same satisfaction as character growth. We need more variety.

This is a worthwhile use of development time. It'll soothe the significant percentage of players who have a lot of time available, but nothing to do with it. Done properly, it will also revitalize leveling queues, which right now suffer from the fact that nobody will queue for them at level 70 unless they're looking to help out a friend or level an secondary job. My boyfriend mains WHM, and he'd happily jump in on the Leveling Roulette as a Healer - a role often in need. But guess what? It's useless to him - utterly useless.

I'd also like to point out that people prioritize different things, and it'd be nice if we could be better at empathizing. I, for instance, could not give two figs about a new race. I wouldn't switch to it, because I like my current character. But I recognize that for many others, a new race is exciting - so SE developing one is, I think, a good idea for the community as a whole. I also despise Hildebrand and everything he stands for, but I know that plenty of others get a kick out of his quest lines, so why not keep it up? It would be nice to receive the same courtesy in return.

[Delmontyb]

These are great ideas, but most of them do not address the desires of people who are seeking single-character progression.

I'm one such player. I want long-term goals that offer tangible in-game benefits. And by long-term, I mean years, not months. I want something that helps me feel invested in my character, something that helps me feel like another person at level 70 with the same gear might not be an exact carbon copy of me. There are some elements of this in the game right now; one great example is Desynthesis levels for crafters. Those require significant effort to accrue (naturally anyway; obviously people can spend huge sums of Gil to do it faster). They offer tangible benefits, but nothing game-breaking. Great. Another lesser example is the faster Mount speed items from Hunts; getting all of them (particularly for ARR areas) required a good bit of time spent.

The problem is that there aren't enough elements like this. Virtually all of the grinds are centered around Glamours or rapidly-invalidated gear, which for me at least, does not deliver the same satisfaction as character growth. We need more variety.

This is a worthwhile use of development time. It'll soothe the significant percentage of players who have a lot of time available, but nothing to do with it. Done properly, it will also revitalize leveling queues, which right now suffer from the fact that nobody will queue for them at level 70 unless they're looking to help out a friend or level an secondary job. My boyfriend mains WHM, and he'd happily jump in on the Leveling Roulette as a Healer - a role often in need. But guess what? It's useless to him - utterly useless.

I'd also like to point out that people prioritize different things, and it'd be nice if we could be better at empathizing. I, for instance, could not give two figs about a new race. I wouldn't switch to it, because I like my current character. But I recognize that for many others, a new race is exciting - so SE developing one is, I think, a good idea for the community as a whole. I also despise Hildebrand and everything he stands for, but I know that plenty of others get a kick out of his quest lines, so why not keep it up? It would be nice to receive the same courtesy in return.

Thanks, Kirsten, this is perfectly said and summarized.

[Nariel]

snip

Well, actualy roulette offer tomestone and as a lv70 bard I quite like receving tomestone when I need them for various reason like gear my main or an alt job, buy easy selling craft component or even trade them for seal to restock my fast burning stock of venture/vanity stone.

As already stated, I don't see the point of meaningless leveling and I fail to see how it is supposed to be appealing to the point of completly changing the face of end-game.

Hildibrand is by far the worst secondary quest-chain but I expect better one actualy, Eureka was a good idea at start but very badly done. A whole new land to explore, a mystery to resolve that what I call secondary quest and I'd rather get a chain quest that push me to explore every old area without getting my hand held by the game for a engaging lore/story discovery with an engaging lv70 experience than another round of leveling for boring perks.

[Delmontyb]

Eureka was a good idea at start but very badly done. A whole new land to explore, a mystery to resolve that what I call secondary quest and I'd rather get a chain quest that push me to explore every old area without getting my hand held by the game for a engaging lore/story discovery with an engaging lv70 experience than another round of leveling for boring perks.

Off topic a bit on this thread, but yes. I feel that Eureka would be fun content (for me personally) if it had 1. A Party Level Sync Feature. and 2. Wasn't instanced content. I get why it's instanced, because it helps insure there are people in the zone, but hopefully this is addressed by them working the game to support this natually for all zones, and could then split this out from it's instance. But that's just me.

Back on topic.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on why you don't think Horizonatal progression wouldn't add anything to this game, but to that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Kirsten_Rev]

Well, actualy roulette offer tomestone and as a lv70 bard I quite like receving tomestone when I need them for various reason like gear my main or an alt job, buy easy selling craft component or even trade them for seal to restock my fast burning stock of venture/vanity stone.

As already stated, I don't see the point of meaningless leveling and I fail to see how it is supposed to be appealing to the point of completly changing the face of end-game.

The Roulette is another great example of where empathy is useful, here. I'm glad that the existing reward, focused on the lower tier of Tomestone, is attractive to you as a level 70. That's a good thing! But it's useful to realize that for others, it's not. My boyfriend really only values the top-tier Tomestone at any given point in time (and even for that, the value sharply declines after he's outfitted his main). I'm personally a mix, depending on what I'm doing; I'll occasionally value the lower tier (or Poetics!), but generally I don't. I'm sure there are plenty of other players falling into both camps.

The point I was trying to make is that the 'meaningless leveling' as you call it is not meaningless to everyone, just as Mendacity tomestones are not meaningless to everyone. Players value things differently. Right now, under XIV's current construction, SE has completely eliminated the value of XP at level 70. More broadly, they've eliminated character progression of any kind in virtually all respects (sans a few exceptions, such as Desynthesis levels). Once you hit cap, all rewards are reduced to collectibles (Glamours / mounts / minions) and gear. There is room for other options. You may not value those, and that's fine - but that doesn't mean it isn't worth spending time on for those of us who do.

[Vitallian]

The Roulette is another great example of where empathy is useful, here. I'm glad that the existing reward, focused on the lower tier of Tomestone, is attractive to you as a level 70. That's a good thing! But it's useful to realize that for others, it's not. My boyfriend really only values the top-tier Tomestone at any given point in time (and even for that, the value sharply declines after he's outfitted his main). I'm personally a mix, depending on what I'm doing; I'll occasionally value the lower tier (or Poetics!), but generally I don't. I'm sure there are plenty of other players falling into both camps.

The point I was trying to make is that the 'meaningless leveling' as you call it is not meaningless to everyone, just as Mendacity tomestones are not meaningless to everyone. Players value things differently. Right now, under XIV's current construction, SE has completely eliminated the value of XP at level 70. More broadly, they've eliminated character progression of any kind in virtually all respects (sans a few exceptions, such as Desynthesis levels). Once you hit cap, all rewards are reduced to collectibles (Glamours / mounts / minions) and gear. There is room for other options. You may not value those, and that's fine - but that doesn't mean it isn't worth spending time on for those of us who do.

YOur BF and myself currently have the same mindset. Once my Tank has all of his gear from either Tomestone or Omega I don't really care about any of them.

The bigger issue with how the game is going though in my opinion is that gear LITERALLY means jack. I can't stand going and throwing away literal 12 weeks worth of gear and time (give or take time) and then doing it all over. ESO while being a SHIT game actually stops that and you keep your gear either forever or unless you change builds or something. Progression can still be a thing I just don't know how to mess with that.

But I do know that playing all the other mmos i've dabbled in 98-2018, that something has to change.