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  1. #1
    Player
    Speaks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    34
    Character
    Sebastian Iron-eye
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere View Post
    Snip
    Both DRK and WAR spend a GCD for their AoE, that is the point. As such let's directly compare and contrast;

    Decimate: 280 potency. 5 of 7 will Direct Crit on start of pull.

    DADP: 280potency once per 60 seconds, off global.

    So WAR gets 5 Direct Crit 280 potency attacks per 90 seconds, DRK gets one oGCD 280 potency attack per 60 seconds.

    Abyssal Drain: 120 potency in an AoE.

    Overpower: 130 potency in a cone.

    Both are GCDs, DRK has slight advantage on GCD speed, but lacks the bonus potency.

    Quietus: 210 potency

    Steel Cyclone: 200 but restores health akin to Abyssal.


    The only way DRK could win out is if the fight went for more than enough time to recast DADP but less time than for another IR. I cannot remember the last time a pull took me more than 40 seconds to burn though.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Speaks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    34
    Character
    Sebastian Iron-eye
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Raffter View Post
    not sure if this post is meant to be a meme "guys if you play drk wrong it's not a good tank"... same. Leave DRK suggestions for people that know the class. Refer to FFLOGs if you're looking for DRK advice.
    FFLogs was used for the proposed changes, as was information and tools found on The Balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    To be quite frank, I don't see many of your changes making Dark Knight feel better. I see it being less active, which is not a bad thing, but with little given to make it compelling. If you're removing 'activity' from a class, then something has to be added back in.

    Activity level and engagement aren't the same thing. This is part of translating class fantasy to mechanical input. The Black Mage doesn't require much activity / input itself, however, the engagement stems from keeping mind of timers, incoming mechanics, and working around them. The APM of Black Mage is among the lowest, but the attention it utilizes is quite active itself.

    Compare this to, say, Samurai who have significantly higher APM but their 'engagement' is on resource management and cheating the GCD to maintain as much uptime, especially if Melee uptime is removed. You're not planning as much around what happens for the Samurai, you're primarily just concerned about keeping in melee range as much as possible.

    It doesn't matter if the boss does a zig zag aoe pattern followed by out/in and then two steps back. Odds are you can cheat all of it with one simple backstep and charge, where a black mage must work around every step. The considerations given to the same mechanic are vastly different, and that plays into the feel of the Job.

    So with this in mind you are removing "activity" (Dark Arts) but not giving anything back.

    Grit being toggled on fully and requiring Blood Weapon to nullify the penalties means it's just maintaining blood weapon as much as you can. If at any point in this kit that Blood Weapon cannot be maintained full time, Grit goes back to never being used, especially since threat generation got removed. This in turn makes the Delirium change kind of meaningless. Blood Weapon is going to be prioritized no matter what. It pretty much has to be, so Delirium will always be the first choice of use, even (and perhaps especially) with the Blood price attached to it for early use.

    Thus from a GCD standpoint Dark Knight has received nothing to compensate for the removal of Dark Arts. The considerations haven't changed. You prioritize Delirium and excess blood gets spent on Bloodspiller, which is pretty much exactly what happens now.

    The Addle effect is a no go. The primary reason potential full time reduction abilities got removed in Stormblood is because they were simply always factored into boss damage anyways. Having them meant you were fighting the encounter as designed, not having them meant you were in for a bad time.

    The actual action changes themselves feel mostly unwarranted and in the wrong direction. Like why did you change Abyssal drain in every way into Unleash, instead of just making Unleash part of the AoE combo?

    Why do Dark Passenger and Carve and Spit share a cooldown despite not competing with each other in their use, and on top of that, -why make Carve and Spit better-. Dark Passenger is already considered a waste of time by most.

    Why have Delirium if it's just Blood Weapon?

    Why curtail MP generation effects to make resources more compelling to manage, but then also remove the primary use of said resource (Dark Arts) by changing it into a tick that's just going to be covered by Siphon Strike.

    Why is Quietus removed instead of being part of the AoE combo?

    Why does unleash still exist if Abyssal Drain is just a combo version of it?

    These action changes seem contradictory with each other for intent and purpose and execution.

    You honestly could have just focused on making Dark Passenger be a super cool ability and skipped the rest of this.

    All of these are fair criticisms and I will adjust the main post to reflect these better.

    A few notes though; Assuming you get at least one Bloodspiller (which would extend Blood Weapon by 5s per use) you will be able to hold over to recast Blood Weapon while only losing a single GCD. But I would hope that under optimal play you could get 3 or even 4 Bloodspillers and thus refresh your buff effect like Greased Lightning, which was the original thought process. Unlike GL or Enochian though I would prefer it be a little harder to maintain to, like you said, increase activity and engagement.

    As for Dark Arts you will still use it. I would like to see Scourge brought back too, giving us yet another off global to use.

    You are correct on the Addle effect. I will remove it and allow Bloodspiller to simply refresh Blood Weapon as it's main extra gain.

    Abyssal, Delirium and Unleash will have their names corrected, thank you. I am sure it only made things harder to follow.

    Syphon Strike should not be able to cover new DA's mana consumption. With the only other source being the refresh effect from CaS you would at best be able to prolong it for a few GCDs extra. I would like to see DA drain all of your mana in 2 combos or less.

    DP and CaS sharing a cooldown was to keep DP from being used in single target since your main source of mana would be fueling DA and TBN. Otherwise it is just free off global damage.

    A good question is why unleash or abyssal exists at all on current DRK. Abyssal is strictly better right now, unless you are too low a level to have it.

    The action changes was to reinforce having Grit up to survive Busters and to enforce use of TBN. Shadow Wall and Dark Mind exist as extra cooldowns, but if you give DRK a lot of lifesteal and also mitigation in large amount you end up with a tank who doesn't need a healer at all, which is also a bad thing.
    (0)
    Last edited by Speaks; 10-09-2018 at 06:14 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Emiin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    29
    Character
    Emiin Vanih
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaks View Post
    FFLogs was used for the proposed changes, as was information and tools found on The Balance.
    Hi! Emiin Vanih here, primary tank mentor and theorycrafter for The Balance, as well as The Theoryjerks. I was ignoring this post as best as I could until you flat out lied about TB's position on Dark Knight, and FFLogs.

    For the most part you were being subjective, so I didn't really care about the topic. But when you misquoted both FFLogs and my personal stance, I had to step in.

    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...nt&class=Tanks

    FFLogs itself refutes the first claim of DRK being underpowered in DPS, in pretty much every percentile bracket. If you are considering logs for dungeons, there isn't any point in looking at them - no one actively competes in dungeons and many people play defensively.

    At the moment, Dark Knight is in the lead in all of our respective theory sheetwork. If you got any information from The Balance, you are clearly misrepresenting the work we have done since the patch has released.

    Now that I've stated our record of fact, now I'll dissect your post.

    Your ideas for every ability revolves around the idea of an AoE powerhouse. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we need any work in this matter. Having Syphon cleave, Abyssal doing 2.2x its damage, Bloodspiller act like Flare, Holy, etc - there is no point to these changes.

    A while back I did a 90s comparison of WAR and DRK pretending no downtime and 100% resource generation. They are essentially the same. With natural downtime WAR will obviously peak higher due to Inner Release, but this is a standard that is accepted amongst all Burst type classes.

    We do not balance around burst. We balance around consistency. Each tank brings their own tools to the table. Your adjustment to make DRK an aoe powerhouse does nothing but make them *the dungeon tank*.

    You mention earlier that defensively DRK has no issues, and then proceed to completely dismantle pretty much all of their defenses in the idea of this perma-grit stance, and the concept of consistent life steal.

    Your concept reduces the output of DRK to even dumber than it already is - The deletion of Mana as a DPS resource removes the micromanagement of DPS and instead on the defensive aspect...which you said it does not need.

    There is no complexity to the DPS decision of this concept. It is a shoddy, slow acting version of Enochian, with an extreme lack of burst potential.

    The current concept of DRK is microdecisions and resource management. Your interpretation is an AoE focused storms eye variant of buff uptime. There is no management anymore, and the overpoweredness of your class interpretation defensively would require it to be the main tank in almost all situations.

    As a final word, earlier you mentioned buffs as analagous to Warrior abilities. Certainly some are similar, but the goal of the design is not to make them the same. Both classes are designed completely differently. Bloodspiller is not Fell Cleave, and Inner Release is not Blood Weapon. They both serve different functions. Learn the identity of the class before you attempt to change it.
    (9)
    Last edited by Emiin; 10-09-2018 at 07:11 AM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Speaks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    34
    Character
    Sebastian Iron-eye
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Emiin View Post
    Hi! Emiin Vanih here, primary tank mentor and theorycrafter for The Balance, as well as The Theoryjerks. I was ignoring this post as best as I could until you flat out lied about TB's position on Dark Knight, and FFLogs.

    For the most part you were being subjective, so I didn't really care about the topic. But when you misquoted both FFLogs and my personal stance, I had to step in.

    https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...nt&class=Tanks

    FFLogs itself refutes the first claim of DRK being underpowered in DPS, in pretty much every percentile bracket. If you are considering logs for dungeons, there isn't any point in looking at them - no one actively competes in dungeons and many people play defensively.

    At the moment, Dark Knight is in the lead in all of our respective theory sheetwork. If you got any information from The Balance, you are clearly misrepresenting the work we have done since the patch has released.

    Now that I've stated our record of fact, now I'll dissect your post.

    Your ideas for every ability revolves around the idea of an AoE powerhouse. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we need any work in this matter. Having Syphon cleave, Abyssal doing 2.2x its damage, (more coming)
    Hello Emiin!

    I would like to quote myself really quick

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaks View Post
    FFLogs was used for the proposed changes, as was information and tools found on The Balance.
    This is not saying the Balance endorsed my post, I am saying I used your tools and FFLogs to come to my respective changes for DRK.

    I also would like to restate something I stated at the beginning of my original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaks View Post
    Addressing the state of Dark Knight.Dark Knight and it's current state.

    Dark Knight as of patch 4.4 has nothing inherently wrong in it's defensive options or DPS for raiding. Analyzing deeply shows that it can perform well enough at a high level to be useful and that it will not cause a group to meet enrage simply by it's presence in a party, nor is it currently unable to survive tank busters of the current tier. Far from it in fact, I believe Dark Knight is very strong defensively.
    I have never stated DRK's single target DPS was subpar. In fact I pointed out that aside from AoE it's DPS is actually quite fine right now. It is not going to cause enrages or wipes at all, nor did I ever say that.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    DaulBan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    282
    Character
    Daul Ban
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaks View Post
    This is not saying the Balance endorsed my post, I am saying I used your tools and FFLogs to come to my respective changes for DRK.
    What tools or information did you use pray tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaks View Post
    But you should never be using Overpower aside from the initial trash grab.
    Once IR is over you sit there and do nothing but single target I guess.
    (1)
    Last edited by DaulBan; 10-09-2018 at 07:20 AM.
    One day I'll be the MT mountain I want to be... But that day is not today. (As of Patch 3.2)

  6. #6
    Player
    Aniya_Estlihn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    449
    Character
    Izayoi Niwa
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    This is not Dark Knight's identity, it doesn't bolster or form a new one either, it over-complicates a job that only has very specific things that need to be altered to restore it's identity. You've no idea what you're talking about and it shows in that you suggested a bloody tank stance shouldn't increase enmity, which is the entire point of a tank stance. Furthermore, putting DP and Carve and Spit on the same Cooldown makes no sense even with your proposed changes as the two actions are completely unrelated to one another and serve entirely different functions.

    Secondly, Dark Knight's identity as the speedy counter tank; as it was in Heavensward (with a GCD and APM that was only second to Ninja), is the identity they should be striving to restore. Not any of this... nonsensical garbage that literally spits int he face of the job as a whole.

    Dark Knight currently suffers. It has deceptively low AoE DPS, and while it certainly is not Paladin, it is still much worse than Warrior's.
    This is also wrong, extremely wrong.

    Dark Knights have the ability to use TBN for Blood which gives use of Quietus, which restores MP, which under the affect of Blood Weapon will restore 800 MP per enemy hit, with Delirium up that's 21s of raw MP and Blood gain, which if one spams DA Abyssal you'll create a fountain of damage, MP and personal healing that frankly makes you damn near invincible if you have so much as even a single CD up. This is excluding using DADP to prevent over-capping MP as well as the blood you'll gain from Salted Earth being properly placed and ticking on all enemies.

    WAR has inner release and can burst things down quickly, sure, but it terms of large pulls, DRK can handle them for much longer and far more effectively than the other two, hands down. One could even argue that Dark Knight and Warrior are comparable in terms of their performance in dungeons as both have unique kits that seem tailored around surviving big pulls while outputting exceptional AoE damage all the while. Just because you or someone else might not utilize the kit to the fullest doesn't mean they are bad, and there needs to be some accountability there.

    Frankly, as a DRK main since 3.X, I don't want any of what you've listed; though props for not changing TBN.
    Most Dark Knights you ask will tell you that we want a fast job with less reliance on Dark Arts and more of a focus on Blood.

    Bloodspiller now deals it's damage normally for the first enemy, 10% less for the second, 20% less for the third, 30% less for the fourth, 40% less for the fifth, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
    Okay.... just noticed this... and like... uhhh... what?

    You do realize that they only do diminishing returns for AoEs and Bloodspiller is single target, r-right?? Like, you're not getting it confused with Quietus are you? Because this would be like telling a Warrior "Heeeey your fifth Fell Cleave in Inner Release is going to have half of it's potency"

    I can't... I am reading through more of your suggestions and they just... make me feel like you have no idea how the kit worked in 3.X or now. It's hard to really want to reply or comment on anything else, so I'll just leave it at this and bail out. You can reply, by all means, but I won't be coming back to read it. Felt it was courteous to say, since I really have no more input to give... these suggestions are just bad and I am at a loss for words. :/
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player
    Speaks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    34
    Character
    Sebastian Iron-eye
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn View Post
    Snip :/
    DP/CaS shared CD was changed before you even posted.

    I understand the AoE rotation. Quite well in fact. I understand TBN gives you Blood gauge, and Quietus gives you MP back. Blood Price also give MP, albeit much smaller amounts.

    But DA Abyssal is not going to pull over Decimates in DPS. My bigger trash pulls die only a few short seconds after my last Decimate.

    You shouldn't need to handle pulls for super long periods of time, DRK will never pull over WAR in DPS in a trash pull if you are running dungeons.

    If you truly believe that please, run a dungeon and parse it in direct comparison to a WAR run. I thought DRK AoE was really good too, and is easy and sustainable to boot! But it isn't everything it seems to be.

    I had listed Bloodspiller as able to cleave. Removing Quietus and baking that effect into Syphon was fine, Bloodspiller is used to maintain Blood Weapon under the suggested changes though; you need to be able to extend it's duration via it and the easiest way to do that is make Bloodspiller good whenever you can possibly use it. The only two abilities that gained AoE were Blood Spiller and Syphon, both for different reasons.

    Thank you for posting regardless.
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Emiin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    29
    Character
    Emiin Vanih
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    This is not saying the Balance endorsed my post, I am saying I used your tools and FFLogs to come to my respective changes for DRK.
    If you had used any f the tools I have made or provided to people in The Balance, you would have been immediately proven wrong with your ideas.

    If you keep saying you used my tools for your numbers - how did you use them? What did you compare? My numbers and tools are for current implementation of DRK and adjusting them in the ways you describe would break the design of the game.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    Emiin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    29
    Character
    Emiin Vanih
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Abyssal Drain: 120 potency in an AoE.

    Overpower: 130 potency in a cone.

    Both are GCDs, DRK has slight advantage on GCD speed, but lacks the bonus potency.

    Quietus: 210 potency

    Steel Cyclone: 200 but restores health akin to Abyssal.
    You did not add Darkside or the typical lack of Storms Eye to these numbers. Dark Knight clearly leads outside of Inner Release.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    Speaks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    34
    Character
    Sebastian Iron-eye
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Emiin View Post
    You did not add Darkside or the typical lack of Storms Eye to these numbers. Dark Knight clearly leads outside of Inner Release.
    I would like to note if you are grabbing 3 packs at a time you can usually pull up Storm's Eye before you hit your 3rd pack as long as you keep moving while you do so.

    I am going to ask a favor from you, and I am quite serious. Please run the Burn or Mocianne's (Hard) and parse yourself on triple pulls and post it in the balance. I would genuinely like to be proven wrong here, I want to believe DRK has good AoE DPS.
    (0)

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