Thread: A Suggestion for Dark Knight moving into 5.0/Eventual Rework

Originally Posted by DaulBan

The most succinctly I could describe these changes is 'I don't like how DRK plays in dungeons so I'm going to use some deep analysis to just put AoE on everything'.

I am more than open to suggestions for getting DRK's AoE up to speed if you have some. The proposed changes make it's AoE more fluid overall, is there something wrong with doing that?

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Maybe by high-end raiders, but not for most players. Also, not during progression--only when optimizing for farming for speed/efficient kills.

I hope you arent saying you know raiders who open with 3 or more aggro combos back to back, because 3 power slashes is what you could get under a 15 second enmity generation buff.

I don't know anyone who even opens with aggro combos at all. Neither me nor my OT do and we are in progression savage, and it isn't like either of us are amazing world first either.

not sure if this post is meant to be a meme "guys if you play drk wrong it's not a good tank"... same. Leave DRK suggestions for people that know the class. Refer to FFLOGs if you're looking for DRK advice.

To be quite frank, I don't see many of your changes making Dark Knight feel better. I see it being less active, which is not a bad thing, but with little given to make it compelling. If you're removing 'activity' from a class, then something has to be added back in.

Activity level and engagement aren't the same thing. This is part of translating class fantasy to mechanical input. The Black Mage doesn't require much activity / input itself, however, the engagement stems from keeping mind of timers, incoming mechanics, and working around them. The APM of Black Mage is among the lowest, but the attention it utilizes is quite active itself.

Compare this to, say, Samurai who have significantly higher APM but their 'engagement' is on resource management and cheating the GCD to maintain as much uptime, especially if Melee uptime is removed. You're not planning as much around what happens for the Samurai, you're primarily just concerned about keeping in melee range as much as possible.

It doesn't matter if the boss does a zig zag aoe pattern followed by out/in and then two steps back. Odds are you can cheat all of it with one simple backstep and charge, where a black mage must work around every step. The considerations given to the same mechanic are vastly different, and that plays into the feel of the Job.

So with this in mind you are removing "activity" (Dark Arts) but not giving anything back.

Grit being toggled on fully and requiring Blood Weapon to nullify the penalties means it's just maintaining blood weapon as much as you can. If at any point in this kit that Blood Weapon cannot be maintained full time, Grit goes back to never being used, especially since threat generation got removed. This in turn makes the Delirium change kind of meaningless. Blood Weapon is going to be prioritized no matter what. It pretty much has to be, so Delirium will always be the first choice of use, even (and perhaps especially) with the Blood price attached to it for early use.

Thus from a GCD standpoint Dark Knight has received nothing to compensate for the removal of Dark Arts. The considerations haven't changed. You prioritize Delirium and excess blood gets spent on Bloodspiller, which is pretty much exactly what happens now.

The Addle effect is a no go. The primary reason potential full time reduction abilities got removed in Stormblood is because they were simply always factored into boss damage anyways. Having them meant you were fighting the encounter as designed, not having them meant you were in for a bad time.

The actual action changes themselves feel mostly unwarranted and in the wrong direction. Like why did you change Abyssal drain in every way into Unleash, instead of just making Unleash part of the AoE combo?

Why do Dark Passenger and Carve and Spit share a cooldown despite not competing with each other in their use, and on top of that, -why make Carve and Spit better-. Dark Passenger is already considered a waste of time by most.

Why have Delirium if it's just Blood Weapon?

Why curtail MP generation effects to make resources more compelling to manage, but then also remove the primary use of said resource (Dark Arts) by changing it into a tick that's just going to be covered by Siphon Strike.

Why is Quietus removed instead of being part of the AoE combo?

Why does unleash still exist if Abyssal Drain is just a combo version of it?

These action changes seem contradictory with each other for intent and purpose and execution.

You honestly could have just focused on making Dark Passenger be a super cool ability and skipped the rest of this.

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

snip.

Only every 90sec? Sure. I only eliminate a single wall to wall 3+ pack pull once every 90 seconds.

IR gives you 5 back to back direct crit steel cyclones or decimates. Decimate is 280 potency AoE. If you infuriate before hand you will get 7 total decimates a pull and 5 of which will direct crit.

You also have vengeance and upheaval/onslaught.

WAR literally pulls double DRKs AoE if not more. By the time you've got your next triple pack pull together IR is already on cooldown or close to it and boom, another triple pull is done.

It isn't that I underestimate DRK AoE, it's that I think most don't understand that WAR AoE is better than most DPS AoE.

Originally Posted by Speaks

You also have vengeance and upheaval/onslaught.

Vengeance is not an AoE move inherently. If you want to include it, don't forget Eye for an Eye then.
The other two are not AoE moves at all. I listed every skill i could remember that was purely an AoE move. DRK inherently has more than WAR.

This given that criteria is strictly factual.

You're also not discrediting what I just said. As well, you're reinforcing that you don't fully understand how to run with DRK in dungeon content.
Of course it'll be bad if you're playing it bad. That falls onto the player not playing their class well.

No amount of job buffs can improve someone playing poorly.

Originally Posted by Speaks

DRK doesn't have more AoE if you still have to spend a GCD to use it.

Also Vengeance definitely counts since it is part of WARs kit. Onslaught/Upheaval are not AoE, but they are both free and off global. Something that cannot be said for CaS or Dark Passenger.

What is your potency per second in a dungeon? What is WAR's? What is your DPS on a triple pack pull for DRK in the Burn right now? Because WAR can break 6k.

I am unsure why you are so incredibly insistent on being hostile though, you could afford to be more constructive like Kabooa.

Except... you're still wrong. DRK and WAR BOTH have to spend a GCD to do their AoE. Everyone has to spend a GCD to do an action. Just... wow.

Again. I listed everything WAR/DRK has that hits more than a single target. Upheaval and Onslaught aren't being included in this as... they don't hit more than a single target. Again, by that criteria, DRK has more options than WAR.

What is your TP/Beast gauge per second? DRK has means of refilling their MP continually. WAR has Equilibrium to refill TP when in Defiance, HP in Deliverance. Only their combos generate beast gauge, and Infuriate is a one time, +50 to the gauge.
TBN is up way more frequently, when it breaks (which it should in a large pull), you get 50 gauge. enough for a Quietus, which is more MP, which is more AD's, or even if you drop grit and go with BW+Del; point is WAR is good at short-burst AoE damage dealing hindered by gauge and TP. Their means of refueling themselves pale in comparison to DRK's in the same scenario.

If you think I'm being hostile, I'm both sorry for you to think that and less so for me coming off as such. You're just flat out wrong in your assumption on the core gameplay loop of DRK, while simultaneously saying that it's bad because you think it's bad. In AoE situations, DRK wins hands down compared to WAR/PLD in dungeon pulls. This isn't some wild speculative quip, people who are leagues better than myself echo the same sentiment. It's not hard to see that statement made time and time and time again on these forums if you'd but look for it.

Originally Posted by Speaks

Nor does it absolve you of being rude to strangers. Go ahead and go line by line, I would welcome the feedback or even the chance to show you may yourself not be correct.

I am not ignoring feedback, I responded to Kabooa as I will do with others too.

Disclaimer: Sure, I feel like killing a few hours, and I just might. I know my analysis of your breakdown will be lacking, but hey, I'm willing to have people nitpick my critique of your ideas. I won't get defensive about having my analysis being called out for being bad.

But let's get this much outta the air. Having your viewpoint challenged by a person does not make them rude. Having a belief challenged doesn't make the challenger rude. Using tu quoque and false cause arguments whenever people challenge your viewpoints isn't what I'd say counts as "responding to feedback." See your posts, #19, #16, #13, #11, and #5.