Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Soraki-Muppe]

I don't understand why are some people content with being bad and being a burden for the others :/

Since most bad players do not view themselves as being bad players.

A few bad players view themselves as being great and better then the rest. As examples the worst dps and tank I have meet falls into this category, the dps was during 2.x and while he was insanely bad and had worse ideas then a stone (yes an actual stone would have better ideas) he was in dungeons always complaining about the pugs being bad... one conversation went like this.
Him: You better watch your enmity management now, I am this close to stealing it.
Me looking at reality: What are you going on about? Your not even close on any of them.
Him: Well ya, I see a red circle around one monster!
And here I facepalm.
The tank was also in 2.x though he from time to time play even now and this example is from the first 24man.
Him, in tank stance as of-tank spamming the enmity combo: Haha, I am so good at this, just see me stealing enmity from that loser main-tank.
Me playing drg here: Get out of tank-stance and stop making me miss my positional attacks!
Him: Don't blame me! Blame the MT!
So ya, the first one do not play anymore and the other one I avoid. For these players there are no help, just blacklist and move on.

Most bad players view themselves as good enough, thinking it is the group they get that makes the difference and not them. Hey, they got through the content so why not think this with the lack of any tools to measure their true performance. Some of these players can be helped, but only if they care to become better once they see at what level they perform.

Then the few bad players that know they are bad. These are the ones most likely to improve, and as they do they will no longer be bad players.

[van_arn]

Since most bad players do not view themselves as being bad players.

A few bad players view themselves as being great and better then the rest. As examples the worst dps and tank I have meet falls into this category, the dps was during 2.x and while he was insanely bad and had worse ideas then a stone (yes an actual stone would have better ideas) he was in dungeons always complaining about the pugs being bad... one conversation went like this.

(conversation edited out for length)

Most bad players view themselves as good enough, thinking it is the group they get that makes the difference and not them. Hey, they got through the content so why not think this with the lack of any tools to measure their true performance. Some of these players can be helped, but only if they care to become better once they see at what level they perform.

Then the few bad players that know they are bad. These are the ones most likely to improve, and as they do they will no longer be bad players.

The game does a terrible job of providing feedback to players, so this is ultimately Square's folly.

I'm not referring exclusively to an accurate measurement of dps, but also:
• the solo instances (meant as a gateway) in the game providing echo
• double experience bonus for new characters for all (not limited) classes, crafting or combat, for months
• double experience for first clears
• no gate (non-echo) on Savage/Extreme/Expert
• commendations given out at random for challenge log
• overnerfing of outdated content, yet not adjusting progression rewards
• damage requirements and damage dealt in dungeons so low a full team of healers or a full team of tanks can clear just about anything
• storymode trials being nothing more than a bump in the road until they suddenly aren't (specifically referring to healers' perspective)
• every NPC on green earth worshiping the player
• level skips
• no-effort "content" that gives free levels without teaching anything relevant to current level (potd/hoh/roulettes).

Any of these, individually, aren't enough to torpedo the entire reason why levels exist, but as long as these exist in combination there's little reason to have levels at all. As it currently stands, levels do not act as a gate for progression for new players -- let alone alts -- they are only a measurement of time. And not much time.

The original (wholistic) design of 2.0 was much better at gating players, and by extension putting a hold on their progress until they figured out the essentials of what they need to know for a given level. It went a bit overboard with Titan, but they overcorrected. These designs have eroded to the point where a tank insists he's doing great because he has 250 commendations at 70, yet only uses the halone combo and Requiescat without holy spirit. On the tank he leveled through HOH spam, story skipped, and topped off with MSQ roulette.

Basically, Square's failing is they've gotten to the point where they'll only tell players yes to anything, and are more than happy to give advancement in exchange for nothing. Players naturally act spoiled and think they're doing fine because Square has forgotten to say no, saving it for a brick wall after 70. Square does nothing to keep them away from that brick wall if they are unprepared. Players, wittingly or unwittingly, tolerate this without kicking a player that can't be distinguished from a badly-made bot because it's "mean". Nevermind it's twice as mean to carry someone to a clear that's just going to put them deeper underwater.

And then, after encountering that brick wall, those players complain about elitists (read as: "person I don't like") and how a solo fight quest in 4.4 requires the use of four buttons and moving around in some AOE, and how The Burn is too hard.

[RokkuEkkusu]

The game does a terrible job of providing feedback to players, so this is ultimately Square's folly.

I'm not referring exclusively to an accurate measurement of dps, but also:
• the solo instances (meant as a gateway) in the game providing echo
• double experience bonus for new characters for all (not limited) classes, crafting or combat, for months
• double experience for first clears
• no gate (non-echo) on Savage/Extreme/Expert
• commendations given out at random for challenge log
• overnerfing of outdated content, yet not adjusting progression rewards
• damage requirements and damage dealt in dungeons so low a full team of healers or a full team of tanks can clear just about anything
• storymode trials being nothing more than a bump in the road until they suddenly aren't
• every NPC on green earth worshiping the player
• level skips
• no-effort "content" that gives free levels without teaching anything relevant to current level (potd/hoh/roulettes).

Any of these, individually, aren't enough to torpedo the entire reason why levels exist, but as long as these exist in combination there's little reason to have levels at all. As it currently stands, levels do not act as a gate for progression for new players -- let alone alts -- they are only a measurement of time. And not much time.

The original (wholistic) design of 2.0 was much better at gating players, and by extension putting a hold on their progress until they figured out the essentials of what they need to know for a given level. It went a bit overboard with Titan, but they overcorrected. These designs have eroded to the point where a tank insists he's doing great because he has 250 commendations at 70, yet only uses the halone combo and Requiescat without holy spirit. On the tank he leveled through HOH spam, story skipped, and topped off with MSQ roulette.

Basically, Square's failing is they've gotten to the point where they'll only tell players yes to anything, and are more than happy to give advancement in exchange for nothing. Players naturally act spoiled and think they're doing fine because Square has forgotten to say no, saving it for a brick wall after 70. Square does nothing to keep them away from that brick wall if they are unprepared. Players, wittingly or unwittingly, tolerate this without kicking a player that can't be distinguished from a badly-made bot because it's "mean". Nevermind it's twice as mean to carry someone to a clear that's just going to put them deeper underwater.

And then, after encountering that brick wall, those players complain about elitists (read as: "person I don't like") and how a solo fight quest in 4.4 requires the use of four buttons and moving around in some AOE, and how The Burn is too hard.

Well, trying to balance between a reasonable challenge for as much people as possible is going to be a double-edged sword.

Catering too much to the lower-skilled will result in faceroll duties. It could increase confidence of the lesser skilled and really casual, but will also drive away those who want the thrill of the fight.

Catering too much to the hardcore may also drive away potential players for this game.

At the end of the day, casuals tend to pay the bills, whether they are good or bad in attitude, gameplay, or tastes. I'll take what I've got and make use of what I have.

[Lambdafish]

Well, trying to balance between a reasonable challenge for as much people as possible is going to be a double-edged sword.

Catering too much to the lower-skilled will result in faceroll duties. It could increase confidence of the lesser skilled and really casual, but will also drive away those who want the thrill of the fight.

Catering too much to the hardcore may also drive away potential players for this game.

At the end of the day, casuals tend to pay the bills, whether they are good or bad in attitude, gameplay, or tastes. I'll take what I've got and make use of what I have.

I think you missed the point of the post. This isn't about catering. This is about making players aware that they are playing the game wrong. There were a lot of tools in ARR to teach players, guildhests, "intelligent" dungeon design, and a slow enough pacing to teach you your job, and players were able to use that time to learn how to play their job. With deep dungeon and level skip though, players can simply bypass all of that and get to 70 easily without needing to know anything.

I get that square is going for accessibility of endgame, but they forget that this is a multiplayer game and that flooding endgame with uneducated players makes endgame less accessible for those that know what they are doing, and further promotes toxic attitudes.

When I get called an elitist for leaving an enrage party for chaos savage after 5 runs, despite not going lower than 70%, I feel like SE can do more.

[Tint]

The game does a terrible job of providing feedback to players, so this is ultimately Square's folly.

I'm not referring exclusively to an accurate measurement of dps, but also:
• the solo instances (meant as a gateway) in the game providing echo
• double experience bonus for new characters for all (not limited) classes, crafting or combat, for months
• double experience for first clears
• no gate (non-echo) on Savage/Extreme/Expert
• commendations given out at random for challenge log
• overnerfing of outdated content, yet not adjusting progression rewards
• damage requirements and damage dealt in dungeons so low a full team of healers or a full team of tanks can clear just about anything
• storymode trials being nothing more than a bump in the road until they suddenly aren't (specifically referring to healers' perspective)
• every NPC on green earth worshiping the player
• level skips
• no-effort "content" that gives free levels without teaching anything relevant to current level (potd/hoh/roulettes).

Any of these, individually, aren't enough to torpedo the entire reason why levels exist, but as long as these exist in combination there's little reason to have levels at all. As it currently stands, levels do not act as a gate for progression for new players -- let alone alts -- they are only a measurement of time. And not much time.

I have just seen a PF for The Vault, description said first time and unsynched ^^

[Liam_Harper]

Basically, Square's failing is they've gotten to the point where they'll only tell players yes to anything, and are more than happy to give advancement in exchange for nothing. Players naturally act spoiled and think they're doing fine because Square has forgotten to say no, saving it for a brick wall after 70. Square does nothing to keep them away from that brick wall if they are unprepared.

I do agree with this. I've seen players jumping into Savage and getting frustrated and baffled why groups are kicking them for low dps, bad gear and baffled why they die so easily. I mean, they cleared Normal so easily. The gap between everything 1-70 Normal and EX/Savage is immense and nothing prepares you for it, quite the opposite you spend 70 levels being tricked into thinking you're amazing at the game.

As for kicking, depends what you mean. I don't agree with auto-kicking a nice player who forgot or misunderstood a mechanic but at least tried it, or slipped on one mechanic or is missing a part in their rotation but is willing to listen to advice. In that case you can give that advice, they can put it into practice and learn something.
If it's players like that guy in the other thread "I was told to use Shield lob but Flash works fine for me so I ignored my group" then by all means give the boot, it's a good lesson in having a better attitude towards your team.