Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[HyoMinPark]

You had two healers, so it was a party of eight players. That's not a DF dungeon. If your friend had to do a lot of extra work because the other healer was slacking, it's only natural they were not happy about it. I don't know the details, but from what I've read, personally, I wouldn't have asked the other healer "can you actually heal?", I would've been more specific. In which parts of the encounter/primal is your friend struggling more? (because of the other healer slacking or playing poorly), I would've spotted those dangerous moments where your friend felt overwhelmed and then asked the other healer if they could cast an extra medica II in X phase, or have the tank topped in X tank buster while your friend handles the aoes. If you are more specific on where you want others to improve, it'll help them. It won't have any effect on the people that are deliberately slacking, but it'll help greatly on the people that are just confused on how to handle a situation and don't know any better.

Hello. I’m the friend in question here. Since I’m being referenced, I’m going to take the time to respond.

This happened in O11N, so you’re right in saying it wasn’t a dungeon. However, that doesn’t make the behavior any more or less excusable.

I asked countless times for my co-healer to help with healing. I explicitedly asked for them to use their regens (I was on AST, in Noct sect for the first 2 pulls, but eventually went Diurnal for the 3rd pull since they seemed allergic to the Regen/Medica II buttons). I asked for them to keep a Regen on the MT. I asked for them to heal after the tank busters. I did nothing but ask them to help heal, even naming the AOE attacks and the tankbuster in case they didn’t remember/didn’t know what they were explicitly called, and their response to me was “I guess I can heal the tank then”.

We kicked them after that because I told them “I’m sorry, I’m not going to be stuck solo-healing this fight because you just don’t want to heal”. Enough of the party apparently also agreed, because they were removed less than 10 seconds after the Vote Dismiss was placed.


Such behavior is completely unacceptable. Such play is completely unaccceptable. And, as I said above: it doesn’t matter if it’s in an 8-man trial over a dungeon; who knows what their dungeon playstyle is even like if I have to explictly ask for them to please use their toolkit. I’d wager to say probably not that stellar either; but it’s easier to get away with poor play in dungeons sometimes since the requirements for them are set so low. Doesn’t make it any less unacceptable in the end.

You’re a level 70 player. You aren’t new anymore. Start learning how to play, and stop forcing others to make up for your shortcomings. I’m far more patient with new people, especially if I see them trying. But when I’m stuck with a co-healer that isn’t new to the content—that has better gear than me, because this individual did: they were full i370 with i380 and I was still in i360 Augmented Crafted stuff—and that doesn’t want to perform their designated role, I don’t have any patience anymore. It wasn’t even an issue of them doing “all DPS, no healing”; they were doing very little of both. Most of their time was spent jumping around.

I’m sorry, but I won’t apologize for removing them from the party. Hopefully they learn from the experience.

[van_arn]

Easy, what's acceptable is decided by who has enough votes for a kick at any level of any content of any tier in the game.

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

[Penthea]

Except that's your own interpretation of their message and I responded to you based on those interpretations. If you don't have anything to say, then don't, instead of derailing the thread about whatever it is you're trying to argue.

Your response was asking me why you should play with those people as if I had ever said anyone should. You appeared to simply continue the argument you were having with an entirely different person. It felt like whatever frustration you had towards that person became redirected to me. I have no idea if this is what you intended but this is how I felt. I didn't want to enter an argument in which I seemed to be just the replacement for the other person who most likely reached their daily post limit. I have my own opinions on the matter you were discussing...I didn't state them, but I was treated as if I had. At least this is how I felt.

No disrespect meant. I was literally acting upon seeing two people who thought they were arguing about the same thing when to me it appeared that they were not. Simple as that. I had no intention of taking sides because frankly both arguments have merit.

And well maybe to give it some rest I'll finally answer you. I don't think the kick or not to kick debate is black and white. So much context matters as well as the personal goals of the players. I'm a firm believer that people should ideally play with who they want to play with and not be forced into an unpleasant situation whether that's poorly skilled or rude players. If you don't like a group or a person then something needs to change. Whether that means everyone plays at an agreed standard or leave to find others to play with.

My chief concern in all of this is not being unnecessarily rude if players happen upon some sort of issue. Just because something isn't going well doesn't automatically grant anyone the right to be horrible to others. It's not difficult to be critical without descending the commentary to insults. So many times in my years of gaming I have seen people start insulting the personality of a player and even their glam just because their dps was low. No matter how correct their other criticisms are all that player will remember is the insults, not the advice. Being unnecessarily rude is counterproductive, cruel, and it sustains the stereotype of unreasonable elitism that skilled players supposedly have.

[Vahlnir]

Easy, what's acceptable is decided by who has enough votes for a kick at any level of any content of any tier in the game.

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

Eh, in Satasha I will generally just shrug and keep moving unless the group is incapable of progressing. Even in the worst case scenario they usually do. If nothing else it gives me a chance to show off my mad SAM tanking skills. But I will certainly try to reach the tank if I can. Anything beyond that though? Sorry Mr/Ms/Mrs Tank-Who-Can't-Tank, bye.

I actually had a tank back in ARR in Totorak, a WAR. We asked them to use their tanking abilities because they couldn't keep hate. Their response? "What's a tank?" I don't believe they were a troll either...I believe they genuinely didn't know, and simply saw the axe and thought it looked cool. One thing led to another though and they were kicked after they wouldn't respond to advice being given after the initial conversation.

I have no regrets, and I can only hope that they solved their identity crisis. We can't make people improve, but we can at least try and point them in the right direction...or give them a kick in the pants. The 2nd is a better motivator, imo.

[Penthea]

I actually had a tank back in ARR in Totorak, a WAR. We asked them to use their tanking abilities because they couldn't keep hate. Their response? "What's a tank?

The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

[Vahlnir]

The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

I think this was actually before the Novice Hall was a thing. Can't remember exactly though.

Edit: Yeah, way before.

[van_arn]

The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

[Penthea]

If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

Bit harsh don't you think? Have you not considered that players tend to prioritise quests? The various novice hall lessons are not presented as quests so a player may dismiss it thinking quests would be a better source of gear and xp. I have actually met players who did this.

Also Sastasha isn't so difficult that a tank can't be given tips to ease the progress in the dungeon. I have seen sprout tanks do much better in just one pull from listening to quick tips they were given. If the tank refuses to acknowledge the tips, then yea kick them.

But god give the baby sprouts a chance, jeez. Sastasha is the first dungeon, you really need to accept that you're going to encounter clueless players in there sometimes. Very unrealistic expectations if you expect every sprout to have a solid understanding of their role when it's possible that they have done zero group content up to that point.

[Selova]

Maybe people should stop making such vague excuses for bad players? I'm not advocating being negative towards players who fall into that category, but making excuses and trying to justify bad play isn't exactly a healthy solution.

[van_arn]

Bit harsh don't you think? Have you not considered that players tend to prioritise quests? The various novice hall lessons are not presented as quests so a player may dismiss it thinking quests would be a better source of gear and xp. I have actually met players who did this.

Also Sastasha isn't so difficult that a tank can't be given tips to ease the progress in the dungeon. I have seen sprout tanks do much better in just one pull from listening to quick tips they were given. If the tank refuses to acknowledge the tips, then yea kick them.

But god give the baby sprouts a chance, jeez. Sastasha is the first dungeon, you really need to accept that you're going to encounter clueless players in there sometimes. Very unrealistic expectations if you expect every sprout to have a solid understanding of their role when it's possible that they have done zero group content up to that point.

Hm, I think I might have... oh.

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

Maybe people should stop making such vague excuses for bad players? I'm not advocating being negative towards players who fall into that category, but making excuses and trying to justify bad play isn't exactly a healthy solution.

This is the official forums, where it's mean to expect higher than autoattack-tier damage because pushing buttons is elitist.