Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Skivvy]

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

Please answer the bold question. Please explain the answer. Your previous response does not allow me to understand your point of view.

I am simply asking how the definition of "Bad" is incorrect according to you, why you believe it to be so, and what agrees with you in defining that word differently.

I am also interested in how you perceive the example of "harassment" used above. Was I harassing that person by making the statement "Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother."? Or should that be taken (as it was intended) as neutral advice given because I clearly noticed someone was performing in a way that was not at an acceptable standard? You may assume in this instance that I make the statement once and then leave them to their own devices. In my mind this causes the above incident to not qualify as harassment, as I am not personally attacking the player or annoying them with with unwanted contact later on.

Is it wrong for me to offer advice such as this, as the person receiving it may be able to infer that they are playing in a way that is objectively "bad"?

I know I'm not the one you want a reply from, but here we go

The example you provided is vastly different than just saying "Skivvy, you're bad" or something similar. There is nothing wrong with offering advice. I give advice if something is going horribly wrong (I tend to put up with a wide variety of play before I feel the need to speak up personally), but I've never had someone snap back at me or take it poorly. But then I also to tend to be more wordy (like your example), and maybe toss in an emote for good measure. Tone can be a tricky one to convey with text.

From the other comments in the thread, it sounds like people are saying that it shouldn't be offensive to just call someone straight out for being bad. Simply telling someone, 'you suck', or 'you're bad' would both be insults given the context. Both may be factual, but it's still insulting to put it that way.

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they don't realize how they come off in text. Or perhaps they just don't care about offending anyone, as someone mentioned on a page back.. I'm of the opinion that it's really not difficult to show a basic level of civility towards the strangers you're playing with. We're all here trying to enjoy our free time - how about we at least try and be friendly with each other?

Depending on the fight, I know that sometimes it can be hard to type full sentences, and maybe all you can squeeze out is a few words, but it is still possible to phrase things without inducing knee-jerk reactions from the other party.

[WaterShield]

I know I'm not the one you want a reply from, but here we go

The example you provided is vastly different than just saying "Skivvy, you're bad" or something similar. There is nothing wrong with offering advice. I give advice if something is going horribly wrong (I tend to put up with a wide variety of play before I feel the need to speak up personally), but I've never had someone snap back at me or take it poorly. But then I also to tend to be more wordy (like your example), and maybe toss in an emote for good measure. Tone can be a tricky one to convey with text.

From the other comments in the thread, it sounds like people are saying that it shouldn't be offensive to just call someone straight out for being bad. Simply telling someone, 'you suck', or 'you're bad' would both be insults given the context. Both may be factual, but it's still insulting to put it that way.

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they don't realize how they come off in text. Or perhaps they just don't care about offending anyone, as someone mentioned on a page back.. I'm of the opinion that it's really not difficult to show a basic level of civility towards the strangers you're playing with. We're all here trying to enjoy our free time - how about we at least try and be friendly with each other?

Depending on the fight, I know that sometimes it can be hard to type full sentences, and maybe all you can squeeze out is a 1-3 word comment, but it is still possible to phrase things without inducing knee-jerk reactions from the other party.

Thank you for that response. This is a bit of a personal question for me as I am a mentor in game (Yes I know about the stigma) who also raids (not amazingly but well enough). This means I often see instances such as this where I can offer helpful advice in the same tone as my example before. I often find it is received poorly by people. I also typically only offer advice such as that if the player is displaying a complete lack of understanding of their class (optimization can be done later if they desire). I also will offer further advice if someone asks.

I'm just trying to understand the hostility to helpful feedback that I see regularly (Yes I realize this is anecdotal so I chose not to use it in my question earlier). It just seems that people are unwilling to accept feedback at all.

[Daibunnie]

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they don't realize how they come off in text. Or perhaps they just don't care about offending anyone, as someone mentioned on a page back.. I'm of the opinion that it's really not difficult to show a basic level of civility towards the strangers you're playing with. We're all here trying to enjoy our free time - how about we at least try and be friendly with each other?

And they shouldn't care about offending others, especially towards level cap content. People have the right to point out that you're doing terrible and causing the party to wipe. The strangers you're playing with showed you the courtesy of actually knowing how to play their class and the basics before joining you, so why can't you do the same for them? If you need some advice, there's plenty of it in game and online, instead of expecting it on the spot after you failed to do your job in the party while holding back everyone else.

Depending on the fight, I know that sometimes it can be hard to type full sentences, and maybe all you can squeeze out is a 1-3 word comment, but it is still possible to phrase things without inducing knee-jerk reactions from the other party.

Or they could just take the feedback as is if its actually constructive. Even something like "heals?????," tells you that there isn't enough healing and the healer needs to pay attention more. Instead you have people overreacting, calling it harassment, or are expecting a full explanation on what needs to happen. Yeah, it sucks that the person/team is somewhat berating you, but realize that they could instead just kick you out without a word. Mistakes do happen, but something like not using shield lob to pull as a pld or not recognizing an aoe/stack marker isn't a mistake, and its just the player doing whatever they like without taking the team's effort into consideration.

[MoroMurasaki]

If you approach someone with a harmless comment at the right time, there shouldn't be a problem about it. If there is, you can either make a big deal out of it or stay calm and behave like a mature person. Under no circumstances you call someone bad, and if some people go as far as to claim that this situation happens often, I've already said I have very good reasons (backed up by a lot of experience) to think that the problem isn't the other's side oversensitivity.

Where are you getting this idea that people are out there in any large number rudely berating everyone doing less than 6k dps or whatever your personal qualifier for bad happens to be? Let me make this incredibly clear.

No one is suggesting that anyone has a right to verbally abuse other players.

Please stop trying to make this an argument about the validity of comments like the now-infamous "go into character config and uncheck the 'play like sh** box's please" or anything that extreme. At one point you argued that simply saying 'heals?' after dying could qualify as harrassment. Do you understand how crazy that is? It's one word. It's being said to someone who's job it was to do that thing. That is incredibly clearly not harrassmnet.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out errors, offering advice and expecting a baseline of competence. If you think there is maybe take some time off because multiplayer games are not meant to cater to every last person's feefees.

[van_arn]

Frankly, if you're getting told to play better you should be happy you're seen as having the potential to clear something. The silent kicks are used for the unsalvageable ones.

[Vahlnir]

Frankly, if you're getting told to play better you should be happy you're seen as having the potential to clear something. The silent kicks are used for the unsalvageable ones.

I haven't had this told to me for a long, long time thankfully, and I consider myself to be fairly competent. Never hear any complaints about my dps, and I'm usually just behind the tanks with threat generation in all content so...I must be doing something right. But I remember back in ARR when I first started that people would criticize me playing as DRG. The climax was when I was trying to do Garuda normal mode and we couldn't down it. The group waited for me to leave. It was then I had to think "wow, I must be doing something very wrong..." and at lvl 50 I began my journey of improvement. I became a dang good one, I'd say before I dropped it for SAM. The point of this however is that anyone can improve if they want to, though to varying degrees. But I feel people should do their best regardless. That's all anyone can ask of them.

[Penthea]

Frankly, if you're getting told to play better you should be happy you're seen as having the potential to clear something. The silent kicks are used for the unsalvageable ones.

This is only true if the party in question are polite with their criticisms when they do give them. I don't think "dps better noob" counts as acknowledging any potential. I have seen people clearly take joy in being overly harsh. Once I saw someone openly admit they were being rude to get someone to leave because they couldn't initiate a kick due to unclaimed loot.

Sometimes people kick silently because they can't be bothered to give advice and want a better replacement fast, not because they think they're a lost cause. It's also to avoid drama as often even the most polite criticism can result in friction. And of course there's wanting to hide that you're using a parser.

[Akira]

hence why majority of the time i dont raid/savage or even do Ex primals. i mostly do expert roulette once aday/story when its available and eureka for when relic comes out and i dont really talk much lol dont have time for savage anyways. havent done anything endgame really since end of ARR. most ppl i see in duty finder for roulettes and i never see again

[ko_]

Frankly, if you're getting told to play better you should be happy you're seen as having the potential to clear something. The silent kicks are used for the unsalvageable ones.

You my friend are like the bluntest down to earth person I met on these forums. Loving these post.

[Sigma-Astra]

It was only a very specific poster that did that, not people in general. There's nothing to debunk because there's no way you could ever justify calling someone bad in the context of an online game. From friendly advice to accurate assessments, you can disguise bad mouthing behind as many terms as you want. No real company is ever going to acknowledge your cause.

If you're bad at your job and I call you bad for not using your entire toolkit or knowing your rotation correctly, and it's the truth, then you have two easy options: 1) Take that as a sign to improve or 2) Don't and I shall continue to keep calling you bad at a job that you've capped to level 70 when, by all means, you should have a basic competency to play that job at level 70.

Bad is not an insult towards anyone unless it's untrue, and if it is untrue, then suck it up buttercup and move on with your day.

This isn't hard to understand, this is a basic adjective used to describe a person's skillset. Whether it's an online game or not should and frankly, does not matter in this scenario. People in competitive sports like football, basketball, etc get called a "bad player" all of the time, it's not a form of harassment!

If someone said you were bad at gardening and it's the truth, do you file a cease and desist order with your local precinct for public harassment? I swear, overly sensitive people find "harassment" in the most basic of things that I think we need a customer service hotline to explain what qualifies and what doesn't qualify as harassment because people cry foul so many times that the word itself is losing it's entire meaning.