Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[WaterShield]

It was only a very specific poster that did that, not people. There's nothing to debunk because there's no way you could ever justify calling someone bad in the context of an online game. From friendly advice to accurate assessments, you can disguise bad mouthing behind as many terms as you want. No real company is ever going to acknowledge your cause.

bad adjective
\ˈbad
\
worse\ˈwərs
\; worst\ˈwərst
\
Definition of bad

(Entry 1 of 3)

1a : failing to reach an acceptable standard : poor a bad repair job

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

In this instance an acceptable standard is attempting to be doing something throughout the dungeon run. I'm not asking for perfection, just a semblance of effort. I would then argue that this does justify me quantifying someone as being bad at something.

Also, stating someone is bad at something is not an insult. It is an assessment of their skill at a given task. It is a neutral statement.

[Gallus]

bad adjective
\ˈbad
\
worse\ˈwərs
\; worst\ˈwərst
\
Definition of bad

(Entry 1 of 3)

1a : failing to reach an acceptable standard : poor a bad repair job

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

In this instance an acceptable standard is attempting to be doing something throughout the dungeon run. I'm not asking for perfection, just a semblance of effort. I would then argue that this does justify me quantifying someone as being bad at something.

Also, stating someone is bad at something is not an insult. It is an assessment of their skill at a given task. It is a neutral statement.

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

Ah - I see our fundamental misunderstanding here. You assume I (or others) would care about hurting an oversensitive person's feelings with a harmless comment when they make a mistake.

Sorry, but I don't care that you're on a crusade for cookie points.

[Ilan]

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

Telling someone he/she is bad = harassment
Giving friendly advice if they do something wrong = harassment
Saying nothing = you are an a..hole because you refuse to help

See a patern there?

[Legion88]

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

Why should i care if the (bad) player doesn't take it well.
If the (bad) player doesn't want to be called out he should play on an acceptable standard for his level and content.

[HyoMinPark]

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

Honestly, it sounds like to me that you would rather people use the words “poor” or “poorly” instead of “bad”, but the connotation in terms of performance assessment is still the same. And, no, it’s not an insult nor harassment to tell someone that their performance is “poor” (bad).

[WaterShield]

It was only a very specific poster that did that, not people in general. There's nothing to debunk because there's no way you could ever justify calling someone bad in the context of an online game. From friendly advice to accurate assessments, you can disguise bad mouthing behind as many terms as you want. No real company is ever going to acknowledge your cause.

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

That doesn't answer their prompt for you.

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

Please answer the bold prompt. Please explain the answer. Your previous response does not allow me to understand your point of view.

I am simply asking how the definition of "Bad" is incorrect according to you, why you believe it to be so, and what agrees with you in defining that word differently.

I am also interested in how you perceive the example of "harassment" used above. Was I harassing that person by making the statement "Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother."? Or should that be taken (as it was intended) as neutral advice given because I clearly noticed someone was performing in a way that was not at an acceptable standard? You may assume in this instance that I make the statement once and then leave them to their own devices. In my mind this causes the above incident to not qualify as harassment, as I am not personally attacking the player or annoying them with with unwanted contact later on.

Is it wrong for me to offer advice such as this, as the person receiving it may be able to infer that they are playing in a way that is objectively "bad"?

[Skivvy]

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

Please answer the bold question. Please explain the answer. Your previous response does not allow me to understand your point of view.

I am simply asking how the definition of "Bad" is incorrect according to you, why you believe it to be so, and what agrees with you in defining that word differently.

I am also interested in how you perceive the example of "harassment" used above. Was I harassing that person by making the statement "Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother."? Or should that be taken (as it was intended) as neutral advice given because I clearly noticed someone was performing in a way that was not at an acceptable standard? You may assume in this instance that I make the statement once and then leave them to their own devices. In my mind this causes the above incident to not qualify as harassment, as I am not personally attacking the player or annoying them with with unwanted contact later on.

Is it wrong for me to offer advice such as this, as the person receiving it may be able to infer that they are playing in a way that is objectively "bad"?

I know I'm not the one you want a reply from, but here we go

The example you provided is vastly different than just saying "Skivvy, you're bad" or something similar. There is nothing wrong with offering advice. I give advice if something is going horribly wrong (I tend to put up with a wide variety of play before I feel the need to speak up personally), but I've never had someone snap back at me or take it poorly. But then I also to tend to be more wordy (like your example), and maybe toss in an emote for good measure. Tone can be a tricky one to convey with text.

From the other comments in the thread, it sounds like people are saying that it shouldn't be offensive to just call someone straight out for being bad. Simply telling someone, 'you suck', or 'you're bad' would both be insults given the context. Both may be factual, but it's still insulting to put it that way.

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they don't realize how they come off in text. Or perhaps they just don't care about offending anyone, as someone mentioned on a page back.. I'm of the opinion that it's really not difficult to show a basic level of civility towards the strangers you're playing with. We're all here trying to enjoy our free time - how about we at least try and be friendly with each other?

Depending on the fight, I know that sometimes it can be hard to type full sentences, and maybe all you can squeeze out is a few words, but it is still possible to phrase things without inducing knee-jerk reactions from the other party.

[WaterShield]

I know I'm not the one you want a reply from, but here we go

The example you provided is vastly different than just saying "Skivvy, you're bad" or something similar. There is nothing wrong with offering advice. I give advice if something is going horribly wrong (I tend to put up with a wide variety of play before I feel the need to speak up personally), but I've never had someone snap back at me or take it poorly. But then I also to tend to be more wordy (like your example), and maybe toss in an emote for good measure. Tone can be a tricky one to convey with text.

From the other comments in the thread, it sounds like people are saying that it shouldn't be offensive to just call someone straight out for being bad. Simply telling someone, 'you suck', or 'you're bad' would both be insults given the context. Both may be factual, but it's still insulting to put it that way.

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they don't realize how they come off in text. Or perhaps they just don't care about offending anyone, as someone mentioned on a page back.. I'm of the opinion that it's really not difficult to show a basic level of civility towards the strangers you're playing with. We're all here trying to enjoy our free time - how about we at least try and be friendly with each other?

Depending on the fight, I know that sometimes it can be hard to type full sentences, and maybe all you can squeeze out is a 1-3 word comment, but it is still possible to phrase things without inducing knee-jerk reactions from the other party.

Thank you for that response. This is a bit of a personal question for me as I am a mentor in game (Yes I know about the stigma) who also raids (not amazingly but well enough). This means I often see instances such as this where I can offer helpful advice in the same tone as my example before. I often find it is received poorly by people. I also typically only offer advice such as that if the player is displaying a complete lack of understanding of their class (optimization can be done later if they desire). I also will offer further advice if someone asks.

I'm just trying to understand the hostility to helpful feedback that I see regularly (Yes I realize this is anecdotal so I chose not to use it in my question earlier). It just seems that people are unwilling to accept feedback at all.

[Daibunnie]

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they don't realize how they come off in text. Or perhaps they just don't care about offending anyone, as someone mentioned on a page back.. I'm of the opinion that it's really not difficult to show a basic level of civility towards the strangers you're playing with. We're all here trying to enjoy our free time - how about we at least try and be friendly with each other?

And they shouldn't care about offending others, especially towards level cap content. People have the right to point out that you're doing terrible and causing the party to wipe. The strangers you're playing with showed you the courtesy of actually knowing how to play their class and the basics before joining you, so why can't you do the same for them? If you need some advice, there's plenty of it in game and online, instead of expecting it on the spot after you failed to do your job in the party while holding back everyone else.

Depending on the fight, I know that sometimes it can be hard to type full sentences, and maybe all you can squeeze out is a 1-3 word comment, but it is still possible to phrase things without inducing knee-jerk reactions from the other party.

Or they could just take the feedback as is if its actually constructive. Even something like "heals?????," tells you that there isn't enough healing and the healer needs to pay attention more. Instead you have people overreacting, calling it harassment, or are expecting a full explanation on what needs to happen. Yeah, it sucks that the person/team is somewhat berating you, but realize that they could instead just kick you out without a word. Mistakes do happen, but something like not using shield lob to pull as a pld or not recognizing an aoe/stack marker isn't a mistake, and its just the player doing whatever they like without taking the team's effort into consideration.