Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[KaivaC]

I think there's one of the major flaws with FFlogs. It checks how you perform compared to everyone else, but not how you perform in cosideration of the performance that i required to clear a fight. Granted that would be hard to calculate. Taking Boss HP, then statistics about how many % each class should deliver to total dps in average, and then see if you meet that average value that i required from your class for that fight.

In germany we have saying: "A good horse only jumps as high as it needs to". If 5k is mora than enough to clear a fight, who gives a shit that there's someone out there that can pull 6k (other than our ego). You could also argue what "better" means. In the end you both cleared, but they put more effort in without any real gains (aside from ego again).

Nature of the thing is, as long as people are compared to each other, there will always be people with grey parses, because there can only be 1 winner. However giving colours that compare your dps with required DPS for a fight would paint a different picture.

But that's just hypothetical rambling ^^

This really all just boils down to me just wanting to be good. I haven't achieved that yet. To me personally, 5k is not good enough for me, as a raider, to say I've done any improvement in the last few months. Of course I compare myself to everyone else in my job and even other jobs, because I need to know how much further behind than others I am. It's not so much as ego for me as it is just being able to say, hey, I'm a good raider. Haven't hit the level yet.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

?

No bad is sadly not a reference, insults on the internet are something the average player has normalized. And every day that passes you keep digging yourselves deeper in the sewers you are all creating. You don't go around insulting because people deserve it, you do it because you can and because there's almost complete impunity when doing so online.

I've heard a lot of people in this thread mention that "people are too sensitive". It's absolutely the other way around. You guys have no business approaching strangers and offering friendly advice in the form of harassment, because that's the only real problem here.

Lot of assumptions and blame being tossed around here. The irony, of course, is you claim it's us who is too sensitive yet your replies suggest otherwise.

I'm expressing an opinion. I don't feel like I'm the one that can't handle a conversation with a discrepancy of opinions here. I haven't called you funny names or anything while you are resorting repeteadly to attacks and sarcastic remarks.

An opinion you presented as fact. If you think my calling you essentially the behavior police is an attack, well, explains a lot. Regardless, if you don't want to be called such, don't go around acting like you make the rules. Or does a very light jab touch that much of a nerve?

I'm generalizing harassment and bad manners as much as you are generalizing the other side's sensitivity and refusal to learn.

And doing a masterfully poor job of the latter. While the former... you just don't seem to know what harassment means. I, however, haven't generalized a thing. Don't try to shift this on me. That has been you alone.

[Gallus]

The very idea that the same comment can be considered harrassment based on the recipients history of being told that thing is asinine. This means that the first time a WHM is told 'heals?' it isn't harrassment but the fifth time it is? That is the most convoluted and potentially problematic thing I've read in quite a while.

It's not too much of a problem when it is anecdotical. It starts being a problem when it goes from anecdotical to frequent.

Are you even sure you understand what the word harrassment means? It certainly doesn't seem like it to an outside observer. There is no situation in which 'heals?' is harrassment, least of all the one used as an example by Bourne.

While there is a definition of harassment, what qualifies as harassment or not can often be vague or ambiguous, so arguing over this makes little sense. "Heals??????" when as a tank you've just died is directly pointing the healer as the only responsible of such situation, all while drawing away any potential responsibility you may have had. Whether that's qualified as harassment or not in your very own personal book isn't very important; what is important however is that such comment will certainly not be welcomed by the other side (for more than obvious reasons).

[Dualgunner]

From anecdote to frequent? What on earth...?

[Gallus]

Lot of assumptions and blame being tossed around here. The irony, of course, is you claim it's us who is too sensitive yet your replies suggest otherwise.

If you have nothing to do with toxic people, I don't see how you should be offended by what you quoted. I present it as a problem because toxic people are a reality nowadays, if you don't consider toxic yourself there's no reason why you should be alluded by anything I've said.

An opinion you presented as fact. If you think my calling you essentially the behavior police is an attack, well, explains a lot. Regardless, if you don't want to be called such, don't go around acting like you make the rules. Or does a very light jab touch that much of a nerve?

I've been calm in all my posts. I still condemn what I think is a problem and something that I think hurts more than helps. That's my stance. It's not called presenting an opinion as a fact. It's called having a different opinion than yours. You seem to be the one a bit more altered judging by your increasingly contemptuous tone every time you give an answer.

I, however, haven't generalized a thing. Don't try to shift this on me. That has been you alone.

Which means you've come here to discuss about an anecdote, sounds realistic.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Tldr: Gallus is pulling the "blame the victim" card. Even in an example made specifically where the sole fault lies with the healer, the tank that died is the only responsible because the healer's feelings might get hurt.

Furthermore, if we're going to make it about feelings, doesn't the tank feel harassed/trolled in the first place because the healer let them die? That would preclude any harassment felt by the healer being called out/kicked.

[KaivaC]

Snip.

Admittedly, I haven't been following this conversation because I've been playing defense on something i misspoke about, this did catch my eye. I'm just gonna take this line to its logical conclusion. If several different players in different instances, who don't even know each other, all say the same thing, like heal more, as an example, then maybe the "offended" player should heal more in this example.

[Legion88]

It's not too much of a problem when it is anecdotical. It starts being a problem when it goes from anecdotical to frequent.

If you get called out frequently to be a bad player or have very low skill it should trigger something within you.
And no, i don't mean the i-got-harassed-for-nothing-victim card.
I mean the enlightenment of self knowledge that you may be not so good at the game as you may thought and the will to improve yourself to a very basic level.

[...]toxic[...]toxic[...]

[Ilan]

From anecdote to frequent? What on earth...?

#Logic

How about SE gives everything to the poor souls, who refuse to do something for the things they want, for free as soon as they log in? I mean they can't put that in the mogstation because people want everything for free and people also can't be bothered to do something for the things they want and everyone who tells them that they have to do something if they want something is just "harassing" them...

[Vidu]

I
While there is a definition of harassment, what qualifies as harassment or not can often be vague or ambiguous, so arguing over this makes little sense. "Heals??????" when as a tank you've just died is directly pointing the healer as the only responsible of such situation, all while drawing away any potential responsibility you may have had. Whether that's qualified as harassment or not in your very own personal book isn't very important; what is important however is that such comment will certainly not be welcomed by the other side (for more than obvious reasons).

...how is "heals????" drawing away any potential responsibility that tank might had? When I die despite having a cooldown up and dodging every attack I can, its very much the healers fault - I did all in my power to prevent my death. And while I personally wouldnt express it that way at that point it is very much the healers fault, so calling them out on that isnt anywhere close to harassment.
If the tank can say to themself "Okay, I did all that I could in that situation, the rest of the burden is on the healer", its not like they're denying their own responsibility - they just did their share and can rightfully say that. Maybe expressed better than "heals???", but during a battle I often dont have the time to type more than "please heal me".

I realise that my version is only one of many that can exist - but so is yours (the one in which the tank didnt do their share), yet you made such a general statment out of it, that I felt the need to correct that a bit.

You can die from many things - not using your cooldowns, not doing mechanics correctly, someone else not doing mechanics correctly... but a healer not healing is very much possible aswell. And asking them to perform their primary job-function at that point isnt harassment (at least when done without adding "you noob" at the end). Asking someone to pay attention and perform their basic role isnt harassment.