Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[MoroMurasaki]

?




I'm expressing an opinion. I don't feel like I'm the one that can't handle a conversation with a discrepancy of opinions here. I haven't called you funny names or anything while you are resorting repeteadly to attacks and sarcastic remarks.





I'm generalizing harassment and bad manners as much as you are generalizing the other side's sensitivity and refusal to learn.

Has it occurred to you that this still completely invalidates your argument? You just admitted you're generalizing. You have no proof of anything.

This whole train of thought is a hot mess. I can't even understand how someone can come to these conclusions.

The very idea that the same comment can be considered harrassment based on the recipients history of being told that thing is asinine. This means that the first time a WHM is told 'heals?' it isn't harrassment but the fifth time it is? That is the most convoluted and potentially problematic thing I've read in quite a while.

Are you even sure you understand what the word harrassment means? It certainly doesn't seem like it to an outside observer. There is no situation in which 'heals?' is harrassment, least of all the one used as an example by Bourne.

I think you need to take a step back and think this through. Under your logic people could be reported for harrassment for basically saying anything about gameplay at all. It's insane.

[Gallus]

The very idea that the same comment can be considered harrassment based on the recipients history of being told that thing is asinine. This means that the first time a WHM is told 'heals?' it isn't harrassment but the fifth time it is? That is the most convoluted and potentially problematic thing I've read in quite a while.

It's not too much of a problem when it is anecdotical. It starts being a problem when it goes from anecdotical to frequent.

Are you even sure you understand what the word harrassment means? It certainly doesn't seem like it to an outside observer. There is no situation in which 'heals?' is harrassment, least of all the one used as an example by Bourne.

While there is a definition of harassment, what qualifies as harassment or not can often be vague or ambiguous, so arguing over this makes little sense. "Heals??????" when as a tank you've just died is directly pointing the healer as the only responsible of such situation, all while drawing away any potential responsibility you may have had. Whether that's qualified as harassment or not in your very own personal book isn't very important; what is important however is that such comment will certainly not be welcomed by the other side (for more than obvious reasons).

[Legion88]

It's not too much of a problem when it is anecdotical. It starts being a problem when it goes from anecdotical to frequent.

If you get called out frequently to be a bad player or have very low skill it should trigger something within you.
And no, i don't mean the i-got-harassed-for-nothing-victim card.
I mean the enlightenment of self knowledge that you may be not so good at the game as you may thought and the will to improve yourself to a very basic level.

[...]toxic[...]toxic[...]

[Vidu]

I
While there is a definition of harassment, what qualifies as harassment or not can often be vague or ambiguous, so arguing over this makes little sense. "Heals??????" when as a tank you've just died is directly pointing the healer as the only responsible of such situation, all while drawing away any potential responsibility you may have had. Whether that's qualified as harassment or not in your very own personal book isn't very important; what is important however is that such comment will certainly not be welcomed by the other side (for more than obvious reasons).

...how is "heals????" drawing away any potential responsibility that tank might had? When I die despite having a cooldown up and dodging every attack I can, its very much the healers fault - I did all in my power to prevent my death. And while I personally wouldnt express it that way at that point it is very much the healers fault, so calling them out on that isnt anywhere close to harassment.
If the tank can say to themself "Okay, I did all that I could in that situation, the rest of the burden is on the healer", its not like they're denying their own responsibility - they just did their share and can rightfully say that. Maybe expressed better than "heals???", but during a battle I often dont have the time to type more than "please heal me".

I realise that my version is only one of many that can exist - but so is yours (the one in which the tank didnt do their share), yet you made such a general statment out of it, that I felt the need to correct that a bit.

You can die from many things - not using your cooldowns, not doing mechanics correctly, someone else not doing mechanics correctly... but a healer not healing is very much possible aswell. And asking them to perform their primary job-function at that point isnt harassment (at least when done without adding "you noob" at the end). Asking someone to pay attention and perform their basic role isnt harassment.

[Penthea]

...how is "heals????" drawing away any potential responsibility that tank might had?

Because if this is all they say then the implication is that the issue is only the healer's fault.

[Gallus]

...how is "heals????" drawing away any potential responsibility that tank might had? When I die despite having a cooldown up and dodging every attack I can, its very much the healers fault - I did all in my power to prevent my death.

I realise that my version is only one of many that can exist

Exactly.

but so is yours (the one in which the tank didnt do their share), yet you made such a general statment out of it, that I felt the need to correct that a bit.

Not the way I see it. I said that a tank who automatically replies with a "heals????????" is automatically putting all the blame on the healer (whether they are right or wrong, that's a different story), and that that comment will often not be welcomed by the other side (for obvious reasons) we agree on that one right? Like I don't write 10 question marks all while thinking I may have had part of responsibility there?

You can die from many things - not using your cooldowns, not doing mechanics correctly, someone else not doing mechanics correctly... but a healer not healing is very much possible aswell. And asking them to perform their primary job-function at that point isnt harassment (at least when done without adding "you noob" at the end). Asking someone to pay attention and perform their basic role isnt harassment.

Depending on when and how you do it, it can be naturally perceived as a hostile reaction in the heat of the moment.

[Vidu]

Exactly.



Not the way I see it. I said that a tank who automatically replies with a "heals????????" is automatically putting all the blame on the healer (whether they are right or wrong, that's a different story), and that that comment will often not be welcomed by the other side (for obvious reasons) we agree on that one right? Like I don't write 10 question marks all while thinking I may have had part of responsibility there?



Depending on when and how you do it, it can be naturally perceived as a hostile reaction in the heat of the moment.

I hope that "Exactly" doesnt only mean you agree with me presenting only one version of a possible story, but also with you only presenting one version of the possible story...

That aside: So we can agree that telling a healer who let the tank (or anyone else for that matter) die, when the tank (or anyone else) did everything in their power to prevent that from happening "You need to heal me" or "Please heal me" isnt harassment? Because when I die to the autoattack after a tankbuster for which I had sentinel, schiltron and reprisal up, I'll do that.

[Gallus]

That aside: So we can agree that telling a healer who let the tank (or anyone else for that matter) die, when the tank (or anyone else) did everything in their power to prevent that from happening "You need to heal me" or "Please heal me" isnt harassment? Because when I die to the autoattack after a tankbuster for which I had sentinel, schiltron and reprisal up, I'll do that.

If that's the entire story, nobody should be offended. If they are offended, it's up to you and the other person whether you want to approach the matter tactful in order to reduce the potential tension that may have generated or not, a good joke can sometimes prevent a situation from going downhill. If they are still offended no matter what despite your positive attitude, at least you know you've done what was in your hands to prevent a negative atmosphere in the group.

[Liam_Harper]

"Heals????" basically states you feel you died because you weren't healed. So you put full responsibility for the death on the healer.

That said, to a degree I can understand it. There's nothing worse as a tank than dying, despite trying everything you can and the party assumes you stood in something or derped on cd's and gives you the tolerant "let's try again" attitude or even worse a "lol tank". So you place the blame automatically where you feel it's deserved, before the assumptions can be made. But then you don't know exactly what happened and no healer would like unfair blame thrown at them instantly. Like in the same way if a dps died to an add while you were mitigating an important mechanic or your mouse died and they instantly threw "tank????" at you, you might not like it. So perhaps a "what happened?" could work better.

But hardly the worst thing to say, especially if your overall attitude is friendly enough. Not sure why there's multiple pages over this.

[Penthea]

and they instantly threw "tank????" at you, you might not like it. So perhaps a "what happened?" could work better.

I rarely see "tank???" and I don't think I have ever seen "dps???"