Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Penthea]

I suppose I set myself up for questioning when I responded in the manner that I did. It's no lie that I feel that my grey parses are garbage. That's why I am incredibly hard on myself. I have to be, otherwise, what is the point of me even raiding?

There is a difference between what you consider to be bad personal performance and what is generally considered garbage. A random pug isn't going to know how you evaluate yourself. If you play several classes they might not even know if your nin is your main, or if that character is your main. The most they can do is look up a log and make a judgement call based on that.

It's good that you want to improve but don't mix up self evaluation with general evaluation.

Why is everybody jumping up in arms against my post

Because you appeared to use an incorrect view on 5k dps as a way to support your argument about elitists not being as common as some may say. It's a bit like an average sized person saying finding well-fitted clothing isn't a problem while claiming that their average height is super short.

[Vidu]

So if the bad run is all a person ever saw of me, they can tell me that run was shit, and I will agree. However if they want to tell me that this one messed up snapshot enables them to call me a bad player in general, I disagree.

I both agree and disagree with you to an extend - I very much agree what you said about your situation. Mistakes happen, we should all be aware of that, things can distract you (I once wiped a Titan EX-party because I had a 30second long sneeze attack during hayfever season, everyone actually laughed about that) and so on.
Actually noticing that yourself and excusing yourself from the party is the right thing to do here and I believe it will leave a more positive impression overall than a negative one. You're showing/telling the group "I actually know better, today is just not my day". I would expect everyone being able to relate to that.

On the other hand, and thats probably not what you described anymore, but to make this a broader statment: Lets say, someone messes up mechanics in Suzaku EX, while also messing up basic job-functions. Like a RDM hardcasting, a bard not using songs/dots (and yes, I've seen that far to often in Ex-primals partys by now), a tank using all cooldowns at once, a healer not casting a single dps-skill even with enough downtime... all those things that are basic, underlying mechanics that should be reasonably expected from someone at level 70, specially when trying their hands on an Ex-primal. In those cases a snapshot can very well enable someone to "judge" that person fairly.
Sure, even then, you can argue that someone can missclick or forget their song once, because they're distracted, but if it happens frequently over the duration of the fight, excusing it as "accident" doesnt really work anymore and shows to me a fundamental lack of understanding and skill.

Again: The second case is probably not the case for you and I want to express again that I dont mean to imply that!
I just wanted to point out that
...yes, judging a players skill only based on the encounter specific mechanics might not be enterily accurate.
...but during that encounter you'll also see them playing their job and you can judge their skill on that.

You can be both bad at Suzaku EX and your job - or simply be bad at Suzaku EX (in that specific moment - either because you dont know the fight or because your cat just jumped into your lap).
And a good player will notice the difference and react accordingly, if at all.

Edit:
I would consider three "stages" of "being bad" right now:
1) Being bad at a specific fight (but capable of playing your job and reading mechanics in general) - easy, you're just in need of more practise, stay out of partys that dont match your skill-level, like farm-partys and depending on your knowledge maybe clear/kill-parties.
2) Being bad at your job - this is where it gets difficult, because this will show in all content and after a certain point (for me personally thats around Brayflox, but at least level 50 and definitly level 70) its not acceptable anymore if you cant perform your basic job-functiony. I dont care how you fix, but until you know how to play your job, you should stay out of (endgame)-group-content (with strangers). Dummies, playing with friends, running Sastasha again... dont care.
3) being bad in general - by that I mainly mean someones attitude. Anyone in category 1 or 2 can save themself in my book by displaying a good atittude, which involves taking (polite) advice, asking for advice, informing the group of any struggles or about them being new, apologising for mistakes... but if someone pulls the "I play how I want, you dont pay my sub!"-card, I'd label them as "bad in general, not worth bothering with"... and kick them.

[Gallus]

Yet you placed the blame solely on raiders.

?

No, you spoke in absolution and have presented your opinions as fact. My "friendly advice" would be don't make baseless generalizations and engage in arguments where you can't handle your opinions challenged.

I'm expressing an opinion. I don't feel like I'm the one that can't handle a conversation with a discrepancy of opinions here. I haven't called you funny names or anything while you are resorting repeteadly to attacks and sarcastic remarks.

Do civilized human beings generalize thousands of individuals based on the actions of a few? Is that polite because it sounds quite childish to me...

I'm generalizing harassment and bad manners as much as you are generalizing the other side's sensitivity and refusal to learn.

[KaivaC]

I am always for experiments so I would be very interested in the results. But in order to be "objective", you could try 3 different types of wording this. First one is exactly how Bourne said, second is the same without sarcasm, and third is "learn to play White Mage!!!!". Please, let us know how it goes.

Of course. Please look forward to it

[RoyalBeef]

I both agree and disagree with you to an extend - I very much agree what you said about your situation. Mistakes happen, we should all be aware of that, things can distract you (I once wiped a Titan EX-party because I had a 30second long sneeze attack during hayfever season, everyone actually laughed about that) and so on.
Actually noticing that yourself and excusing yourself from the party is the right thing to do here and I believe it will leave a more positive impression overall than a negative one. You're showing/telling the group "I actually know better, today is just not my day". I would expect everyone being able to relate to that.

On the other hand, and thats probably not what you described anymore, but to make this a broader statment: Lets say, someone messes up mechanics in Suzaku EX, while also messing up basic job-functions. Like a RDM hardcasting, a bard not using songs/dots (and yes, I've seen that far to often in Ex-primals partys by now), a tank using all cooldowns at once, a healer not casting a single dps-skill even with enough downtime... all those things that are basic, underlying mechanics that should be reasonably expected from someone at level 70, specially when trying their hands on an Ex-primal. In those cases a snapshot can very well enable someone to "judge" that person fairly.
Sure, even then, you can argue that someone can missclick or forget their song once, because they're distracted, but if it happens frequently over the duration of the fight, excusing it as "accident" doesnt really work anymore and shows to me a fundamental lack of understanding and skill.

Again: The second case is probably not the case for you and I want to express again that I dont mean to imply that!
I just wanted to point out that
...yes, judging a players skill only based on the encounter specific mechanics might not be enterily accurate.
...but during that encounter you'll also see them playing their job and you can judge their skill on that.

You can be both bad at Suzaku EX and your job - or simply be bad at Suzaku EX (in that specific moment - either because you dont know the fight or because your cat just jumped into your lap).
And a good player will notice the difference and react accordingly, if at all.

Yeah I agree. I focused solely on the mechanic aspects of the fight and not on class mastery of the player, which indeed can give a way better impression of general player skill.

[KaivaC]

There is a difference between what you consider to be bad personal performance and what is generally considered garbage. A random pug isn't going to know how you evaluate yourself. If you play several classes they might not even know if your nin is your main, or if that character is your main. The most they can do is look up a log and make a judgement call based on that.

It's good that you want to improve but don't mix up self evaluation with general evaluation.



Because you appeared to use an incorrect view on 5k dps as a way to support your argument about elitists not being as common as some may say. It's a bit like an average sized person saying finding well-fitted clothing isn't a problem while claiming that their average height is super short.

I assume most people here can tell that my 5k is garbage. That is what I have always assumed - if I'm pulling grey parses, I'm a trash raider. Regardless, i misspoke about something. . Like I said, I tend to not be explicitly clear with initial postings on this forum. One look at a nin log can tell you that ninjas should be hitting in the area of 6 to 6.2k. My argument still stands that they're not as common as this forum makes it seem in my personal experience.

[RoyalBeef]

I assume most people here can tell that my 5k is garbage. That is what I have always assumed - if I'm pulling grey parses, I'm a trash raider. Regardless, i misspoke about something. . Like I said, I tend to not be explicitly clear with initial postings on this forum. One look at a nin log can tell you that ninjas should be hitting in the area of 6 to 6.2k. My argument still stands that they're not as common as this forum makes it seem in my personal experience.

I think there's one of the major flaws with FFlogs. It checks how you perform compared to everyone else, but not how you perform in cosideration of the performance that i required to clear a fight. Granted that would be hard to calculate. Taking Boss HP, then statistics about how many % each class should deliver to total dps in average, and then see if you meet that average value that i required from your class for that fight.

In germany we have saying: "A good horse only jumps as high as it needs to". If 5k is mora than enough to clear a fight, who gives a shit that there's someone out there that can pull 6k (other than our ego). You could also argue what "better" means. In the end you both cleared, but they put more effort in without any real gains (aside from ego again).

Nature of the thing is, as long as people are compared to each other, there will always be people with grey parses, because there can only be 1 winner. However giving colours that compare your dps with required DPS for a fight would paint a different picture.

But that's just hypothetical rambling ^^

[Lorgana]

Things to think about before calling someone bad

> Are they bad
> Yes, Proceed
>No, why are you asking the question.

[Lastelli]

I assume most people here can tell that my 5k is garbage. That is what I have always assumed - if I'm pulling grey parses, I'm a trash raider. Regardless, i misspoke about something. . Like I said, I tend to not be explicitly clear with initial postings on this forum. One look at a nin log can tell you that ninjas should be hitting in the area of 6 to 6.2k. My argument still stands that they're not as common as this forum makes it seem in my personal experience.

You definitely have some work to do and can improve a lot, but I'd personally consider a 5k nin "adequate". At the very least, it means that you understand how the job works at a fundamental level.

That's not the case for a 3k blm. And unfortunately, they're more common than you'd think.

[MoroMurasaki]

?




I'm expressing an opinion. I don't feel like I'm the one that can't handle a conversation with a discrepancy of opinions here. I haven't called you funny names or anything while you are resorting repeteadly to attacks and sarcastic remarks.





I'm generalizing harassment and bad manners as much as you are generalizing the other side's sensitivity and refusal to learn.

Has it occurred to you that this still completely invalidates your argument? You just admitted you're generalizing. You have no proof of anything.

This whole train of thought is a hot mess. I can't even understand how someone can come to these conclusions.

The very idea that the same comment can be considered harrassment based on the recipients history of being told that thing is asinine. This means that the first time a WHM is told 'heals?' it isn't harrassment but the fifth time it is? That is the most convoluted and potentially problematic thing I've read in quite a while.

Are you even sure you understand what the word harrassment means? It certainly doesn't seem like it to an outside observer. There is no situation in which 'heals?' is harrassment, least of all the one used as an example by Bourne.

I think you need to take a step back and think this through. Under your logic people could be reported for harrassment for basically saying anything about gameplay at all. It's insane.