Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Vahlnir]

I love how my post was removed for telling someone to stop generalizing people they don't even know, and to recognize the toxicity in their own statements.



You never answered my original question to you: are these "most toxic" players you're meeting actually raiders, or do you just assume they are because their "most toxic" behavior fits your anti-raider prejudice?

Have you also recognized your own toxicity in the 5 posts you've made on this forum? Do you think it's more or less excusable to negatively generalize a bunch of people you've never met simply because you met some bad apples, and simply because your negative generalizations are against the raiders?

Which, it seems to be the trend to hate people who raid simply because they raid, or because a few raiders are jerks. I hate to break it to you, but toxicity also exists in non-raiders. It's not exclusive to raiders; your prejudice proves that.

Well said. This guy also clearly never played WoW. This community is, by and large, a positive one. If he thinks people here are toxic? Oh man...

[Gallus]

This community is, by and large, a positive one. If he thinks people here are toxic? Oh man...

I too thought (and think) so, which is why I found this thread to be a disappointing surprise. The title of the thread was pretty clear and wasn't really open to interpretation. You don't go around calling people bad. People however, questioned it, and some went as far as to claim calling someone bad could very well be an accurate assessment. Then had someone else claim that it could be too that the term bad was referred to a player's performance. Basically, anything and beyond to justify harassing someone.

I know my stuff well so I don't come across very often into situations where someone attempts to blame me for a wipe or teach me how to do my rotation, but on the rare occasion I had a bad day, or I was playing a job I was not used to, or I came back from taking a break and felt extremely clumsy, or even made a mistake that cost the team some deaths or even a wipe, I was 9 out of 10 times welcomed with a "heal????????????????" or "is it very hard to aoe???" - proceeds to kick - or "keep the f******* aggro".

If you are not part of what I call "the legion of friendly advice givers", there's zero reason why you should even feel alluded by my words, because what I'm condemning here is harassing others on the internet, not truly offering friendly advice. Thing is, my experience has repeteadly demonstrated me that friendly advice in a forum translates into harassment ingame in the heat of the moment. You really are friendly and tactful when approaching someone? Cool. But know many aren't. So do not act surprised when people raise the alarm when someone approaches to tell them they could play differently a 10th time when the other 9 times they got insulted and mocked.

[Tint]

You really are friendly and tactful when approaching someone? Cool. But know many aren't. So do not act surprised when people raise the alarm when someone approaches to tell them they could play differently a 10th time when the other 9 times they got insulted and mocked.

You can be the most friendly person ever, but you are still shaming that underperforming person in front of the rest of the party.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

You can be the most friendly person ever, but you are still shaming that underperforming person in front of the rest of the party.

We can always go back to kicking them silently and letting them continue to underperform, since pointing that out is "shaming" them.

Sigh if we tell them about their shortcomings, we're mean and shaming them. If we kick silently, we're mean because we're not giving them a chance to improve. If we tell them about their shortcomings and kick them, we're mean and toxic raider filth.

Then you don't want us to say people here like to coddle bad gameplay...

[Tint]

We can always go back to kicking them silently and letting them continue to underperform, since pointing that out is "shaming" them.

Sigh if we tell them about their shortcomings, we're mean and shaming them. If we kick silently, we're mean because we're not giving them a chance to improve. If we tell them about their shortcomings and kick them, we're mean and toxic raider filth.

Then you don't want us to say people here like to coddle bad gameplay...

Yes you are correct, there is no right way to handle this. It all depends on the person in question, how they react to being called out for bad gemplay in front of the party. It's understandable when they go into their defense in that moment instead of taking the advice and maybe try to improve. Understandable, since they are bascially backed into a corner, but maybe not the right move in that situation ^^

But actually improving is nothing you can do from one moment to the next one aynway, so I think the best way is to apologise for the bad gameplay (deescalation) and either somehow finish the content / getting carried or leaving the party / getting kicked.


But all I wanted was to point out why people sometimes become toxic over a friendly advice with good intentions: Pointing with the finger at them in front of other people can be enough for that.

[Penthea]

Yes you are correct, there is no right way to handle this.

There is a right way. You can tell someone they're underperforming without being rude about it. There is a massive difference between "sorry we have to kick you, your dps is too low" and "l2p noob dps".

If a person can't handle any criticism even when it's politely given then that's something they need to address. Not the people dishing out the criticism. Just because you don't like what someone said doesn't mean what they said was wrong or unprovoked.

But all I wanted was to point out why people sometimes become toxic over a friendly advice with good intentions: Pointing with the finger at them in front of other people can be enough for that.

Unfortunately without being able to send tells in instances the only way to inform someone as to why they're getting kicked is to say it in front of everyone. Some hate getting kicked silently, some hate being publicly criticised...you can't please everyone. The best you can do is be polite.

[Deceptus]

There is a right way. You can tell someone they're underperforming without being rude about it. There is a massive difference between "sorry we have to kick you, your dps is too low" and "l2p noob dps".

Then they report you because the only reason you can tell if someone's DPS is too low is if you're using a parser which is against the TOS.

[Dualgunner]

I too thought (and think) so, which is why I found this thread to be a disappointing surprise. The title of the thread was pretty clear and wasn't really open to interpretation. You don't go around calling people bad. People however, questioned it, and some went as far as to claim calling someone bad could very well be an accurate assessment. Then had someone else claim that it could be too that the term bad was referred to a player's performance. Basically, anything and beyond to justify harassing someone.

There you go again, shifting the goalposts again. First assessment, then "honest assessment," now "accurate assessment." We also had this issue with the modifier "formative" for the term "formative assessment."

You know if a word needs a modifier, then that means the word does not naturally mean what it means with said modifier? Saying somebody is bad at the game is an assessment. It's not a formative one. One could argue it's a summative assessment. However it does not need to be a formative assessment to be an accurate assessment, an honest assessment, or an assessment.

[Gallus]

There you go again, shifting the goalposts again. First assessment, then "honest assessment," now "accurate assessment." We also had this issue with the modifier "formative" for the term "formative assessment."

You know if a word needs a modifier, then that means the word does not naturally mean what it means with said modifier? Saying somebody is bad at the game is an assessment. It's not a formative one. One could argue it's a summative assessment. However it does not need to be a formative assessment to be an accurate assessment, an honest assessment, or an assessment.

Yeah let's keep endlessly arguing over the semantics over and over again, because that's what you do in the 50% of the content of your posts. Brings nothing, so I've completely ignored that half of the content of yours in every single post. But you keep insisting, so let's get into it.
The word honest does not change the meaning of assessment whatsoever, so I'm not sure why you are even bringing it up. Your google definition of assessment brings absolutely nothing because the context in which a person offers "friendly" advice to somebody else in an online context has again nothing to do with giving someone a mark in an exam, though judging by your posts you are going to probably try and squeeze some common point here you'll even struggle to believe yourself.

And lastly, people in this thread have repeteadly demonstrated their desire for underperformers to improve, so they can have smoother runs. I'm inclined to believe it is implied that one of the goals of their "feedback", "friendly advice" or whatever you want to call it is to make others improve, which is more in line with the idea of assessment I gave, because know what? If it's not, and these people are really trying to just give a mark and leave it at that, without caring about others improve, I'll have a hard time understanding why I'm even reading the words "friendly advice" over and over again from them.

[Dualgunner]

Yeah let's keep endlessly arguing over the semantics over and over again, because that's what you do in the 50% of the content of your posts. Brings nothing, so I've completely ignored that half of the content of yours in every single post. But you keep insisting, so let's get into it.

And here I've been taking into account the entirety of your posts. I'm hurt.

The word honest does not change the meaning of assessment whatsoever, so I'm not sure why you are even bringing it up.

Assessments can be made in bad faith, or dishonestly. If "honest" really doesn't change the meaning of "assessment"...why add it? To fluff up your post to meet the minimum word requirement? Also how about "accurate"? Does "accurate" now not modify "assessment" at all?

Your google definition of assessment brings absolutely nothing because the context in which a person offers "friendly" advice to somebody else in an online context has again nothing to do with giving someone a mark in an exam, though judging by your posts you are going to probably try and squeeze some common point here you'll even struggle to believe yourself.

Bad isn't an assessment of skill.

You made the claim that the term "bad" is not an assessment of skill. I corrected you. It is not a formative assessment of skill, however it is still assessing that player's skill as bad.

And lastly, people in this thread have repeteadly demonstrated their desire for underperformers to improve, so they can have smoother runs.

I assume people who want to help people improve wouldn't use the term "bad" right out the gate. This doesn't change that "bad" is, at the end of the day, an assessment of skill.

I'm inclined to believe it is implied that one of the goals of their "feedback", "friendly advice" or whatever you want to call it is to make others improve, which is more in line with the idea of assessment I gave, because know what? If it's not, and these people are really trying to just give a mark and leave it at that, without caring about others improve, I'll have a hard time understanding why I'm even reading the words "friendly advice" over and over again from them.

Not everybody believes in formative assessment, either, I might add. Summative assessment is still widely popular in the United States, at least. It's primarily how learning by parser works, as well--you perform, you get a grade after the performance (DPS), and you decide what to do better next time from that information. If someone believes in using summative assessment and genuinely thinks that that will help players improve, then that is how they're going to try to help other players learn.