Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[SerLuke]

It's never acceptable to call someone bad to their face: you kick them instead and let them come to their own conclusions.

And those boogeyman games you just listed have a bunch of nice people in them, they just have less delicate flowers that wilt when they find out they're holding back their team.

This does much more harm then good, years ago when I was still pretty new to the end game scane and I wanted to try out some of the Alexander Normal raids, after 1 wipe. I was kicked from an duty with no explanation as someone who deals with major depression and anxiety(and as I’m finding out recently mild autism, this made me extremely weary and afraid to que for anything else almost to the point of wanting to quit the game, I’ve received helpful feedback other times in the game that I’ve taken into account and used to improve on, just because some people might react negatively to it doesn’t mean everyone will.

[Gallus]

So, you'd rather have us lie to them that they're doing a good job (whether it be a tank that can't hold hate, a healer who spams Cure 1, or a DPS who pulls 2,000 DPS and stays dead on the floor), give them a gold star sticker for effort, and instead, we should burden ourselves by carrying people who literally don't care about anyone elses time so long as they themselves are having a good time?

But, who cares about the people that don't want to take an hour to get through something that should have only taken 30 minutes or less, right? Who cares if they don't have fun either because some people refuse to improve and instead, weigh down the shoulders of the players that do care, and then they themselves decide to leave because they're tired of carrying bad players?

This community won't turn into CoD, LoL, or Overwatch. It'll turn into a dead game where casuals can't get through content anymore because all of the dependable people left for greener pastures and refuse to put up with it any longer.

Either that or they complain to make it easier towards the point that just logging in gives you crap.

You don't lie, you just don't go around calling bad to anyone. If it's a player who is part of your static you talk to them and politely tell them they are not pulling their weight, so you either give them a chance or kick them from your group. If it's a PF party, you might want to kick the person right away. If it's a random player in a dungeon and they are underperforming (a rather ambiguous term because what's underperforming for you might be playing ok for someone else but whatever) you either give them friendly advice or ignore them. Friendly advice isn't telling them they are bad. What are you even trying to accomplish by telling someone they are bad? At best you'll get a deserved spot in their blacklist.

[van_arn]

This does much more harm then good, years ago when I was still pretty new to the end game scane and I wanted to try out some of the Alexander Normal raids, after 1 wipe. I was kicked from an duty with no explanation as someone who deals with major depression and anxiety(and as I’m finding out recently mild autism, this made me extremely weary and afraid to que for anything else almost to the point of wanting to quit the game, I’ve received helpful feedback other times in the game that I’ve taken into account and used to improve on, just because some people might react negatively to it doesn’t mean everyone will.

This is fine. If you were kicked, enough in that party clicked yes. If this happened after a single wipe, chances are you had no business being there.

Your personal issues are that, personal. They are not something 7 other people are required to put up with.

Ultimately, you did exactly what was expected-- you found out what the problem was and worked around it outside of that party. Had you quit instead, you still would have resolved the issue by not being around to queue for 70 content.

[Sigma-Astra]

You don't lie, you just don't go around calling bad to anyone. If it's a player who is part of your static you talk to them and politely tell them they are not pulling their weight, so you either give them a chance or kick them from your group. If it's a PF party, you might want to kick the person right away. If it's a random player in a dungeon and they are underperforming (a rather ambiguous term because what's underperforming for you might be playing ok for someone else but whatever) you either give them friendly advice or ignore them. Friendly advice isn't telling them they are bad. What are you even trying to accomplish by telling someone they are bad? At best you'll get a deserved spot in their blacklist.

And guess what happens when anyone gives another player constructive criticism about their skill level? We get called toxic, elitist, or worse names sometimes.

You can't have it both ways sometimes and ignoring them serves nothing but allowing the problem to continue for some other poor, unfortunate soul.

If people could learn to actually take constructive and friendly advice, and not immediately whine or cry foul when someone else thinks they're being detrimental towards the party, we wouldn't have this coddling and hand holding problem that we do now.

If I see another person being detrimental and haphazard at playing their main class, I can and will call you out for playing poorly if it's a class that I'm fairly knowledgeable in at the very least, and tell you why and what you need to improve on. However, there is nothing entirely wrong with calling someone outright as a "bad player". It's not a harsh insult and people need to stop treating the word "bad" as a harsh, derogatory insult. I was called a bad BLM a few times when I first started playing that game, I sucked it up, and used that as motivation to get better. It's right that we should always use respectful and polite language, but people also need to stop expecting things to be sugarcoated like a bowl of frosted flakes. There is absolutely nothing disrespectful about the word "bad". I'm bad at cooking, it's not an insult when people say that I'm bad at it. It's the truth. It's more of an insult when they start placing swear words and other flames into the sentence in place of "bad".

People need to learn to deal with the truth.

If they want to blacklist someone for telling the truth, then maybe they should run content with their friends where they can be safe in that little bubble of their's and believe everything is fine and dandy on their own time.

If you don't like constructive criticism, then run with people who don't care how poorly you do.

[Vahlnir]

On the other end of this, you have the people who call the general community trash because they don't know their toolkit on a Savage level. I actually had someone sit out of a boss fight in Rabanstre because they died. I was healing and having to deal with the usual skullduggery associated with gaming with the general public but I had to ask... WTF? I sort of like the challenge of getting through content with non-ideal factors but if you're one of the l33ts who can't handle that their dps was not top tier because you can't avoid mechs well... You're not only bad, you are also just pathetic. :\

It's a shame that people do this. However, there does come a point where being raised and dying becomes a little much, to the point where it's better to just lie there or wait outside. That doesn't sound like what happened in your particular case, though. Last week I did a Ridorana run and the healers were absolutely useless. My entire party (A) was basically dead every boss fight. By the end I had had enough, so I decided to wait outside after dying at least...5-6 times trying to bring down the final boss. It wasn't worth it. I was being raised and being killed seconds later because I was getting no heals.

[Liam_Harper]

ITT: Calling someone bad is completely acceptable.

Push it just a bit more and this community will end up having nothing to envy to communities like CoD, LoL or Overwatch. Keep up the good work, you are almost there.

And apparently kicking players, without reason, for a single death in Normal mode content is a good thing and should be encouraged.

I'm actually amazed, the community is at least twice as toxic as WoW. This topic has gone from "players who refuse to take advice or contribute to the team shouldn't be encouraged" (reasonable) to "kick everyone, any mistakes deserve kicks, learn to play flawlessly or don't do group content" with Van_arn gone on some insane crusade at the lead.

And then we expect Yoshi to give us parsers after reading all this. (Don't get me wrong, I want them too, but really...)

[van_arn]

And apparently kicking players, without reason, for a single death in Normal mode content is a good thing and should be encouraged.

I'm actually amazed, the community is at least twice as toxic as WoW. This topic has gone from "players who refuse to take advice or contribute to the team shouldn't be encouraged" (reasonable) to "kick everyone, any mistakes deserve kicks, learn to play flawlessly or don't do group content" with Van_arn gone on some insane crusade at the lead.

And then we expect Yoshi to give us parsers after reading all this. (Don't get me wrong, I want them too, but really...)

You're very silly. I'm not saying to kick people for a single mistake, just that only someone catastrophically bad will get an 8-man to kick them to the curb after a single wipe. Which, let's not forget, they have every right to do if they have the votes.

And yes, if they were so bad 7 other people wanted them gone in one attempt they aren't ready for that content. They should get better on their own time or consider uninstalling if they expect a carry. Either way the community wins, because they're not worth 7 other peoples' time until they can pull their own weight. Kicking players helps them learn there's an issue or it causes them to quit if they don't want to improve, and either decision is a net positive.

[Zephera]

ITT: Calling someone bad is completely acceptable.

If they're bad then I don't see a problem using an accurate descriptor.

And apparently kicking players, without reason, for a single death in Normal mode content is a good thing and should be encouraged.

Nice hyperbole.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'm actually amazed, the community is at least twice as toxic as WoW. This topic has gone from "players who refuse to take advice or contribute to the team shouldn't be encouraged" (reasonable) to "kick everyone, any mistakes deserve kicks, learn to play flawlessly or don't do group content" with Van_arn gone on some insane crusade at the lead

Know what's really unproductive? Massive strawmans.

If you're going to come in here and complain at least complain about things people have actually said. This is just nonsense.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

On the other end of this, you have the people who call the general community trash because they don't know their toolkit on a Savage level. I actually had someone sit out of a boss fight in Rabanstre because they died. I was healing and having to deal with the usual skullduggery associated with gaming with the general public but I had to ask... WTF? I sort of like the challenge of getting through content with non-ideal factors but if you're one of the l33ts who can't handle that their dps was not top tier because you can't avoid mechs well... You're not only bad, you are also just pathetic. :\

Please don't generalize raiders on the actions of one idiot. Most raiders I know, who range from casual Savage proggers to WF players, would make fun of someone "babyraging" over sitting out a boss because they missed a heal.

You don't lie, you just don't go around calling bad to anyone. If it's a player who is part of your static you talk to them and politely tell them they are not pulling their weight, so you either give them a chance or kick them from your group. If it's a PF party, you might want to kick the person right away. If it's a random player in a dungeon and they are underperforming (a rather ambiguous term because what's underperforming for you might be playing ok for someone else but whatever) you either give them friendly advice or ignore them. Friendly advice isn't telling them they are bad. What are you even trying to accomplish by telling someone they are bad? At best you'll get a deserved spot in their blacklist.

Bad is merely a reference in this thread, not something I suspect many say outright unless it's an accurate description. If I have a healer who simply isn't healing properly, which is causing me to come close to hitting the floor or actually hitting it, I typically say in check, "I need to be healed" or something to that effect. If it's a persistent problem, I simply issue a vote dismal because I have neither the time nor desire to waste arguing with someone who should know the basics of their job in o11n.