Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Skivvy]

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

Gotta be extra careful about your own spelling/grammar when you are calling someone else out.

Anyway, regardless of my thoughts on this overall thread, I really hate the term "toxic". It's up there with "white knights" on my hate list. If you don't agree with someone's opinion or stance, that's fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic (or a white knight).

[Vidu]

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

*they're not - if you want to nitpick on someones spelling, make sure you get yours right...

And jerkish behaviour happens, no one is denying that. However, when I hear stories about someone being constantly attacked/kicked etc. I start to wonder if we're hearing the full stories.
I'm not saying your friend is lying and I'm unsure wether she was talking about one or several incidents - if it was only one and she quit the game over it... phew... I'm again not saying that that sort of behaviour is right, but growing a thicker skin can go a long way in life.
If several groups called her "bad", she might have had more trouble putting that video-watching into action than she'd like to admit. Again, that doesnt warrant any kind of insult, but it sounds very unlikely to me that several people would rally up against a tank whos actually playing fine. Just watching a video doesnt cut it, at least not for some people - personally, I need to understand a fight or a job to perform well within it. So I make sure I understand what I'm doing before jumping into content.

I main a tank btw and in my 5 years of playing I had two groups telling me I sucked - one was correct, the other one wasnt. I have to admit I find it strange to hear stories about people constantly being harassed with no reason... I rarely see that happening.
The community is by far not as bad as you're trying to make it look - not defending people insulting your friend, but I stand by my point that if someone calls you (hypothetical you) bad, you should ask yourself whos the problem right now - you or the other guy. And you being the problem should be an answer you should really consider and think about before dismissing this as someone being toxic.

[Vahlnir]

*they're not - if you want to nitpick on someones spelling, make sure you get yours right...

And jerkish behaviour happens, no one is denying that. However, when I hear stories about someone being constantly attacked/kicked etc. I start to wonder if we're hearing the full stories.
I'm not saying your friend is lying and I'm unsure wether she was talking about one or several incidents - if it was only one and she quit the game over it... phew... I'm again not saying that that sort of behaviour is right, but growing a thicker skin can go a long way in life.
If several groups called her "bad", she might have had more trouble putting that video-watching into action than she'd like to admit. Again, that doesnt warrant any kind of insult, but it sounds very unlikely to me that several people would rally up against a tank whos actually playing fine. Just watching a video doesnt cut it, at least not for some people - personally, I need to understand a fight or a job to perform well within it. So I make sure I understand what I'm doing before jumping into content.

I main a tank btw and in my 5 years of playing I had two groups telling me I sucked - one was correct, the other one wasnt. I have to admit I find it strange to hear stories about people constantly being harassed with no reason... I rarely see that happening.
The community is by far not as bad as you're trying to make it look - not defending people insulting your friend, but I stand by my point that if someone calls you (hypothetical you) bad, you should ask yourself whos the problem right now - you or the other guy. And you being the problem should be an answer you should really consider and think about before dismissing this as someone being toxic.

This is pretty much what I tried to say earlier, but somehow it was me saying to "always blame the victim" to this guy when it couldn't be further from the truth. There are coincidences, and then there are patterns. Patterns tend to paint a very different picture.

[Sigma-Astra]

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

You can't claim that others are being toxic when the entire context of everything you write is rife with vitriol and unnecessary spite towards others just because you think we should hold everyone's hands like we're back in grade school again.

You pay your sub money, you can do poorly on your own time. I pay my sub money, I can expect competency and improvement from the people that group with me. If I want partners that lay dead on the floor every few minutes, I'll play a Tales game or something, thanks.

[Ilan]

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

Trying to correct people and then call them toxic. Seems somewhat weird.

Its also pretty funny to compare the FF community with the LoL community...if you get flamed in both games in the same way you should think about what you are doing wrong and not complain that others are beeing toxic because there are tons of players who don't have your problems in final fantasy.

[HyoMinPark]

It's "Over exaggerated" two words.... and there not, SE has the screens of the chat....but it's typical, the toxics first reaction is to always say it doesn't happen.

I’ve played this game for almost 3 years now, done all types of content from casual to Ultimate, and I wasn’t always the best player either. But I’ve never seen someone threaten to hurt someone or their family simply for bad play. So either the claim is overexaggerated, or there is far more to the story to prompt someone to actually threaten bodily harm. If there was an actual threat like this, a report to the GMs would get the individual banned, because the GMs do take cases of harassment like this seriously, regardless of what people like to say.

But since we’d rather play the Spelling Police: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...overexaggerate
And it’s “they’re”; not “there”. Before you try to correct someone else on spelling/grammar, may want to check your own first. Just saying.

Anyway, regardless of my thoughts on this overall thread, I really hate the term "toxic". It's up there with "white knights" on my hate list. If you don't agree with someone's opinion or stance, that's fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic (or a white knight).

“Toxic” has reached the point where it doesn’t even sound like a word anymore.

I don't run EX or Savage content (or even 8-person Raids), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more toxicity there, but it very much appears to me that you're being hyperbolic, and likely also leaving out some key parts of the story.

I’ll give some insight on Extremes/Savage content. The “toxicity” that occurs in there usually only occurs because someone is making consistent mistakes that is wiping the group and refuses to stop making them (e.g., learning how to do a mechanic correctly, as opposed to failing it multiple times); is doing significantly low damage (and this is usually not called out because of how taboo parsers are—people are usually either silently removed or the party is disbanded); or someone else starts blaming other players for things they are doing wrong (e.g., tank gets one-shot by the buster and blames the healer for “not healing them”, but didn’t even bother to pop a cooldown for it). And even then, never have I seen someone tell someone else to kill themselves or threaten to hurt them or their family. And I’ve pugged a lot of EX trials and just about every Savage floor this expansion save for Alphascape floors (I haven’t pugged them yet).

So the “toxicity” that occurs in most EX and Savage parties are from players failing to meet the standards the content requires: doing extremely low damage, dying to simple mistakes, not utilizing their entire kit, etc.. And, even then, there are plenty that scrape by with nothing said to them. Because the minute someone tells them that they’re doing something wrong, suddenly the party is full of “t o x i c e l i t i s t s” that have “ruined the game”.

[MicahZerrshia]

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

I honestly don't understand this. I have been playing mmos since 2002, ran a ls in xi for nearly 10 years and one in this game for 3, I also play eso, dabbled in WoW and GW2 among others and I have never come across this sort of harassment outside maybe a couple of times, usually by unsupervised 12 yr olds or ppl with a known rep on the server that ppl just avoid anyway. Same with my other half, and my friends who also play mmos.

So either we have all been extremely lucky in our time gaming, or these ppl have been extremely unlucky or someone is being over dramatic. Really who can say.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded.

I have however come across this type of attitude and I must say if you are not willing to learn how the game works and you are wrecking the experience for everyone else, everyone else isn't the problem. You cannot expect to do group activities if you actively don't want to use the tools the game provides you and are holding everyone else back just because you are being stubborn or lazy. If you don't like the mechanics of a job or game, then...don't play. Just because you are a ff fan doesn't mean you have the right to play it however you want and everyone else has to just deal with your poor attitude. Or expecting the dev team to change their vision of the game because a few ppl find it "too hard" is ridiculous, esp in a game this already faceroll easy if you take a moment to learn it.

I have had to kick ppl from raid groups for not knowing rotations or basics of dodging after spending days face down in the dirt because of one person. Then it is always me who is the big bad elitist or bro who "wants to show his power" yada yada yada w/e. No, I am someone who wants to progress through content and since you are actively not taking the initiative to learn your role and you are causing 7 other ppl to waste time, then we are not the big bad guys here. We are just guys and gals who took the time to learn our jobs and want to play the game.

And not everyone does endgame or get shiny weapons to be epeen or lord it over others. The vast majority of us do it because we like it. I honestly stopped doing endgame in ffxiv because of the poor attitude, not of the raiders, but of all the ppl who want to raid but not learn their job, rotations or role and expect everyone else to just let them do what they want because they don't pay their sub or they have a real life, job, kids, w/e the excuse it. I raid in other games because the attitude is better. Sucks, I would love to down primals and run Omega, but it's just easier not to.

So, remind me, who ruins the game for others again?

[Kirsten_Rev]

Last night I talked to my friend who left the game because of the toxicity in Dungeons and this is pretty much what she had to say.

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded."

And since I have heard something similar to this more times than I can count...I'll just say nice job FFXIV has lost it's awesome community status to become League of Legends, and this is why we can't have nice things.

I think this is a bit ridiculous.

Firstly, the idea that a game shouldn't involve watching tutorials and such is absurd. It's akin to saying that poker is ruined because players need to know that a full house beats a flush, but is itself beaten by a straight flush. Tutorial videos for fights are, in effect, the instruction manuals for group play in an MMO.

Secondly, while I certainly don't know the whole story surrounding your friend, I must confess, I don't feel like I'm getting an accurate picture. FFXIV is my first MMO, and actually my first real computer game. I'd literally never controlled a game with a mouse and keyboard before FFXIV. I still get overwhelmed by basic combos at times, depending upon how many mechanics are going off. I haven't done much in the way of theory-crafting, and rely mostly on a brief dungeon guide video for any content I do. I say this, because I am the exact example of someone who is likely to experience criticism in dungeons. I know I've sucked before, I'm sure I'm not totally up to snuff today, and I'd bet money I'll take a step backward for awhile when 5.0 introduces new abilities (presumably).

Despite all this, I have never, ever been the target of criticism like this before. I've never been kicked from a party. I don't even know if I've been called bad. All the missed mechanics, all the sub-par DPS, all the screw-ups: never once experienced what I'd describe as strong criticism, let alone received threats. In fact, I can't even recall this sort of behaviour being directed at other players I've been in parties with, either. I've just never seen it. I mentioned this thread to my boyfriend, who has played XI and XIV for close to 15 years combined, and he can't recall seeing this at any point, either.

So for me, it's hard to believe some parts of your post. It just doesn't match the community I've seen. I don't run EX or Savage content (or even 8-person Raids), and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more toxicity there, but it very much appears to me that you're being hyperbolic, and likely also leaving out some key parts of the story.

[van_arn]

Last night I talked to my friend who left the game because of the toxicity in Dungeons and this is pretty much what she had to say.

"I watched all the videos on how to tank, I used all the current rotations, and made sure I watched videos on the fights before hand, then end result was people still telling me to kill myself or threatening to find me and my family and hurt them. I finally deciphered that "Bad" = you don't play the way I want, or I just really want to harass someone.

And honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game...it's a interactive spreadsheet with three frat bros who want to show their power over you. That's okay I can play FFXV and not have to pay to be threatened and degraded."

And since I have heard something similar to this more times than I can count...I'll just say nice job FFXIV has lost it's awesome community status to become League of Legends, and this is why we can't have nice things.

I know there is going to be several of us who plan to bring it up at Fanfest this year.....but if SE want's to emulate Blizzard to the point it wants it's terrible community nothing will be done.....where is GM Dave when you need him.

1 hotbar. One hotbar is all that is necessary to go 2.0-4.0 on a paladin. It's not optimal, but it's the basics and enough to handle any dungeon without getting chainkicked. It is one of the simplest jobs to play at a base level.

I genuinely don't know what to tell someone that can't handle this. There are bigger issues than the class if these skills are used so poorly people keep kicking or complaining.

It's "wrong" to not use Royal Authority, but that in itself isn't enough to get you kicked. The fact that you're a tank means you're given more leeway than any other class; people tend to avoid kicking them due to the replacement times.

You don't even need to watch videos. If you communicate with your party, you have boss strategies on tap. And people, as a rule, go out of their way to mollycoddle tanks that say they're doing their first run.

Hell, you even have the necessary tools and survivability here to do mass pulls all the way through -- healer permitting. So you'd make good time.


Consider the above, and "honestly if you have to watch movies and learn sql formulas it isn't a game" is absolute nonsense.

[Fynlar]

If we want to get super nitpicky, "overexaggerate" isn't even a thing, because it's superfluous. "Exaggerate" already means to overtly emphasize something; the "over" part is unneeded.