Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[van_arn]

The best thing you can do is direct them to the novice hall. That would give them an idea as to what their class is supposed to do.

But if they were already in the novice hall gear...well you can't help everyone!

If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

[Penthea]

If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

Bit harsh don't you think? Have you not considered that players tend to prioritise quests? The various novice hall lessons are not presented as quests so a player may dismiss it thinking quests would be a better source of gear and xp. I have actually met players who did this.

Also Sastasha isn't so difficult that a tank can't be given tips to ease the progress in the dungeon. I have seen sprout tanks do much better in just one pull from listening to quick tips they were given. If the tank refuses to acknowledge the tips, then yea kick them.

But god give the baby sprouts a chance, jeez. Sastasha is the first dungeon, you really need to accept that you're going to encounter clueless players in there sometimes. Very unrealistic expectations if you expect every sprout to have a solid understanding of their role when it's possible that they have done zero group content up to that point.

[van_arn]

Bit harsh don't you think? Have you not considered that players tend to prioritise quests? The various novice hall lessons are not presented as quests so a player may dismiss it thinking quests would be a better source of gear and xp. I have actually met players who did this.

Also Sastasha isn't so difficult that a tank can't be given tips to ease the progress in the dungeon. I have seen sprout tanks do much better in just one pull from listening to quick tips they were given. If the tank refuses to acknowledge the tips, then yea kick them.

But god give the baby sprouts a chance, jeez. Sastasha is the first dungeon, you really need to accept that you're going to encounter clueless players in there sometimes. Very unrealistic expectations if you expect every sprout to have a solid understanding of their role when it's possible that they have done zero group content up to that point.

Hm, I think I might have... oh.

I'll happily kick a gladiator in sastasha that doesn't use flash and does not respond to party chat -- in fact I have -- and no amount of muh feels will be enough to make that not happen.

Maybe people should stop making such vague excuses for bad players? I'm not advocating being negative towards players who fall into that category, but making excuses and trying to justify bad play isn't exactly a healthy solution.

This is the official forums, where it's mean to expect higher than autoattack-tier damage because pushing buttons is elitist.

[Penthea]

This is the official forums, where it's mean to expect higher than autoattack-tier damage because pushing buttons is elitist.

The opposite is also true. I have seen in many threads a lot of people acting as if it's perfectly acceptable to instantly kick people for daring to be only average in non-savage content. A lot of opinions regarding player performance are quite extreme on both ends. This is why the debates tend to get very heated.

[van_arn]

The opposite is also true. I have seen in many threads a lot of people acting as if it's perfectly acceptable to instantly kick people for daring to be only average in non-savage content. A lot of opinions regarding player performance are quite extreme on both ends. This is why the debates tend to get very heated.

If they have the votes, that's the party's decision. Perfectly fine, inevitable, and with enough finality there's no counter once it's gone through.

It only persists on the forums because couldashouda lives here. Ingame, the vote itself is final.

[gamepob]

If they're in any dungeon and need the hall of the novice, it's already too late. They had to skip or not pay attention to the lessons in the hall of the novice to enter sastasha.

Kick.

A new player starts the game. After few hours of MSQ and class quests they get Sastasha at lvl 15. "Oh, great. A dungeon where I can see how groups work!" ... 5 mins into the dungeon ... "Hey newbie, did you finish hall of novice?" ... "What is that?" I just followed my quests" ... "It's already too late for you" ... kick.
Is this how you envision player's first interaction with groups to go?

I was lvl 30 (class) and I was trying to find information on how to become Ninja, when I realised I missed this thing called "Hall of novice". And even after doing those first few instances, I knew little more about group cohesion. Why? Because those first few teach you nothing but how fast everything dies. You true group test comes by doing Sastasha, Tam Tara and Copperbell. You know, the "levelling" dungeons.

Is it my fault for missing "hall of novice"? Of course it is? But I am a novice and as such I am expected to make mistakes, especially in a game with so many different game systems and such a fast levelling pace your head is spinning while trying to decide what to do in what order so you don't lose XP, gear or whatever else there is in a form of rewards. Your head is filled with all these bizarre names, places and systems and you are just trying to learn by doing. And dungeons 1-50 (levelling dungeons) are the best way to do that. No amount of reading or watching guides and manuals can replace that.

So, while we can all agree it's neither fair nor helpful for a newbie or uneducated to enter end game group content without learning more about that content and expectations that are tied to it, we can also agree learning dungeons are off limits to end-game players who have no desire or capabilities to help new players finish those dungeons without expecting them to play on a level they (end game player) believe is right. They are learning.

So, if you are an end game player with high expectations, please, don't enter a levelling dungeon as your competence for basic human interaction is not high enough. Stick to the content where players are more or less equal.

[van_arn]

A new player starts the game. After few hours of MSQ and class quests they get Sastasha at lvl 15. "Oh, great. A dungeon where I can see how groups work!" ... 5 mins into the dungeon ... "Hey newbie, did you finish hall of novice?" ... "What is that?" I just followed my quests" ... "It's already too late for you" ... kick.
Is this how you envision player's first interaction with groups to go?

I was lvl 30 (class) and I was trying to find information on how to become Ninja, when I realised I missed this thing called "Hall of novice". And even after doing those first few instances, I knew little more about group cohesion. Why? Because those first few teach you nothing but how fast everything dies. You true group test comes by doing Sastasha, Tam Tara and Copperbell. You know, the "levelling" dungeons.

Is it my fault for missing "hall of novice"? Of course it is? But I am a novice and as such I am expected to make mistakes, especially in a game with so many different game systems and such a fast levelling pace your head is spinning while trying to decide what to do in what order so you don't lose XP, gear or whatever else there is in a form of rewards. Your head is filled with all these bizarre names, places and systems and you are just trying to learn by doing. And dungeons 1-50 (levelling dungeons) are the best way to do that. No amount of reading or watching guides and manuals can replace that.

So, while we can all agree it's neither fair nor helpful for a newbie or uneducated to enter end game group content without learning more about that content and expectations that are tied to it, we can also agree learning dungeons are off limits to end-game players who have no desire or capabilities to help new players finish those dungeons without expecting them to play on a level they (end game player) believe is right. They are learning.

So, if you are an end game player with high expectations, please, don't enter a levelling dungeon as your competence for basic human interaction is not high enough. Stick to the content where players are more or less equal.

You seem to be reading an awful lot into what I said. Scroll up and you'll see I'm talking about a tank that wasn't using flash AND didn't respond to party messages.

If you won't communicate with your party, bye. Communication is non-negotiable, even for novices.

[gamepob]

You seem to be reading an awful lot into what I said. Scroll up and you'll see I'm talking about a tank that wasn't using flash AND didn't respond to party messages.

If you won't communicate with your party, bye. Communication is non-negotiable, even for novices.

We began with end game content and people not doing the minimal (basic) required of their class. Which is understandable. Now we are at lvl 15 leveling (learning) dungeon where novices barely know how to play the game. Interesting. I wonder if you gave that player more than 5 seconds to answer.

How high is that horse you are riding on?

[Daibunnie]

Now we are at lvl 15 leveling (learning) dungeon where novices barely know how to play the game. Interesting. I wonder if you gave that player more than 5 seconds to answer

They should have a decent understanding of what they need to do especially when they got to level 15 somehow. I haven’t seen anyone wipe or kicked on sastasha so far so all those sprout players at least knew what they were doing and communicated enough. However, once you start getting into content like auram vale, you still have players acting like they only have those same 4 skills from level 15 and not communicating with the team. The only thing you can do at that point is either carry them through it or kick.

[Vahlnir]

We began with end game content and people not doing the minimal (basic) required of their class. Which is understandable. Now we are at lvl 15 leveling (learning) dungeon where novices barely know how to play the game. Interesting. I wonder if you gave that player more than 5 seconds to answer.

How high is that horse you are riding on?

Yeah, there may be legitimate reasons why people can't communicate. When I started on PS3 back in ARR, I bought a keyboard months in advance of the game going live. To some though a keyboard was an afterthought and many simply didn't bother. It might not cross some peoples' minds is all if they play on a console. It should, but sometimes it doesn't.