Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Zephera]

Missed the last 10 odd pages but it seems the discussion has moved onto how to give advice to underperforming players? If so, I'm under no obligation to take the time out of my day to provide said advice, it's usually a lot faster to kick and replace with someone more capable. Sure I'll cut some slack for players leveling, that's the learning stage, but anyone who wants to do max level stuff can find great guides anywhere on the internet, or they can ask someone in their FC for some pointers before they jump in with random people who expect basic competency.

[AxlStream]

Missed the last 10 odd pages but it seems the discussion has moved onto how to give advice to underperforming players? If so, I'm under no obligation to take the time out of my day to provide said advice, it's usually a lot faster to kick and replace with someone more capable. Sure I'll cut some slack for players leveling, that's the learning stage, but anyone who wants to do max level stuff can find great guides anywhere on the internet, or they can ask someone in their FC for some pointers before they jump in with random people who expect basic competency.

This is the only sane option really. Good players are no obligated to coddle the bads.

[Soraki-Muppe]

Hmm... this thing sure went in one direction faster then you can say njan.

Still I am going to jump back to point 3 from the OP. Having a bad day or being sick, reason is that I have something I view as a good example using myself for this.
First of, having a bad day is something everyone have, but if every day is a bad day then said day is not the problem. After a longer break I am finally starting to get this nasty rust of my axe... got a bunch of it into my tail during the first days and let me tell you that getting that out of my fine fluffy tail is not easy. Just kept out of PF and more challenging content while getting rid of said rust, spending instead time in dungeons and other easier content where small f-ups would not result in wipes.
On the sick part. This week I had a cold, during this I did not do anything until I was feeling better, could not really concentrate enough for anything.

The point of this, if there really is one and not me getting all rusty in my head.
If you know you have a bad day then stick with content you find easy to do, do not jump into PF or raid finder or anything you find slightly difficult. Doing so will reflect poorly on you and it is kinda egoistic as you are more or less asking 7 other players to carry you.
If you are sick then rest and do the content when you are feeling better, this is what I did this week and looks like capping will be zero problems even without a few exp-roulettes.
And if you still, knowing you have a bad day or feel sick, jump into a PF and mess up since you are not at your top then you should not be surprised if someone calls you bad.

[gamepob]

How often does it happen? The situation where someone has to tell off, critique or advice another player? How often do you find yourself in a situation where you want to tell someone else they are bad?

[KaivaC]

You don't run into many "big bad elitists" because:
1. You're not just playing a meta job, you're playing THE meta job, and most are just glad to even HAVE a NIN instead the 430th SAM who doesn't dot
2. You're demonstrating honest to god effort and clearing, and that's truly what most people want.

5K is averagely average these days, and tbh, I don't expect fantastic numbers from utility jobs in a PUG anyway. Plus, smart people who read logs can tell what things are out of your control. They'll know if the healer spent the whole fight like our WHM here getting hit by Adam's spin attack and standing in both of Eve's Aoes. They'll know if the tank dragged a pack of aoeing mobs over your body during ten chi jin and all that kind of stuff. And most of all, if you have a static, and they haven't kicked you despite underperforming, then they enjoy you as a person, and are willing to play with you, which are really the best kind of people.

Admittedly, I have a hard time seeing this. "They enjoy you as a person." "Honest to God effort". I just assume... I have been assuming that unless I'm averaging green to orange, I'm no good as a raider. Still do, because I thought that is what it took to be a good raider. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but having been here long enough and experiences I've had overall, my belief is that being a grey, even on a utility meta job, means that I'm a garbage player and need to work twice as hard as before. That's just... How I went about things.

[van_arn]

How often does it happen? The situation where someone has to tell off, critique or advice another player? How often do you find yourself in a situation where you want to tell someone else they are bad?

I'd say every eighth dungeon has someone doing something so flat out wrong they're unsalvageable and I decide to give them the boot or I bail because I can't tell whether the party is made of bots and go make a sandwich instead.

I'm more the sort that says dumb unrelated things in dungeons rather than calling people out, mostly because the only time I need to care what other people are doing is when they're just baffling in their incapability. Heck, I'm usually excited to see someone doing well. I like to ask for summoners why summoners tend to do alright, but blms are hot and miss-- mostly miss.

Pretty much the "meanest" I've gotten recently was in a mentor roulette, I was healing. I joined an in progress Tsukiyomi and they already had echo so I knew it was going to be a bad time. We did clear it in one shot with me, but I would've kicked two if we had wiped.

The black mage proceeded to trip over his own two feet, and my cohealer flopped on cleaves. The two of them combined had eleven deaths, and most everyone else had one death (except myself, the tank, and a single sam-- go figure).

"Mean" to me -- which is more along the lines of tough love -- is saying "if you died more than once with echo, you didn't earn that clear. Requeue and do better." Before exiting. Dropping something like this after a clear is fairly important, since it does a good job of souring the win for people that need to not eat cleaves. Repeatedly.

Which is actually straight up blunt hard facts. Nobody singled out, nobody given a part on the head for being useless, and potentially the first real time any of them have gotten pushback for failing to stay out of the fire.

Do I think it did any good for that healer? I sincerely doubt it, but if there's even a 1:50 chance it provides the kick in the pants they needed to queue again sometime and watch cleaves that's good enough for me.

Heck, even if it scares that healer off from healing anything "because the mean elitist will make a sad" past Tsukiyomi that's a win for the community as a whole.

[KaivaC]

I'd say every eighth dungeon has someone doing something so flat out wrong they're unsalvageable and I decide to give them the boot or I bail because I can't tell whether the party is made of bots and go make a sandwich instead.

I'm more the sort that says dumb unrelated things in dungeons rather than calling people out, mostly because the only time I need to care what other people are doing is when they're just baffling in their incapability. Heck, I'm usually excited to see someone doing well. I like to ask for summoners why summoners tend to do alright, but blms are hot and miss-- mostly miss.

Pretty much the "meanest" I've gotten recently was in a mentor roulette, I was healing. I joined an in progress Tsukiyomi and they already had echo so I knew it was going to be a bad time. We did clear it in one shot with me, but I would've kicked two if we had wiped.

The black mage proceeded to trip over his own two feet, and my cohealer flopped on cleaves. The two of them combined had eleven deaths, and most everyone else had one death (except myself, the tank, and a single sam-- go figure).

"Mean" to me -- which is more along the lines of tough love -- is saying "if you died more than once with echo, you didn't earn that clear. Requeue and do better." Before exiting. Dropping something like this after a clear is fairly important, since it does a good job of souring the win for people that need to not eat cleaves. Repeatedly.

Which is actually straight up blunt hard facts. Nobody singled out, nobody given a part on the head for being useless, and potentially the first real time any of them have gotten pushback for failing to stay out of the fire.

Do I think it did any good for that healer? I sincerely doubt it, but if there's even a 1:50 chance it provides the kick in the pants they needed to queue again sometime and watch cleaves that's good enough for me.

Heck, even if it scares that healer off from healing anything "because the mean elitist will make a sad" past Tsukiyomi that's a win for the community as a whole.

Personally, I prefer to be singled out, but that's just me...it wouldn't work for everyone, but I think what you do is good, especially at that level of content. I tend to encourage it in my runs, because I know I'm bad - though I prefer to have a parse so I can see why I'm bad, so I can improve on that. I think we need a little more tough love in Stormblood, imho.

[Skivvy]

The lack of patience shown in this thread is amazing. People all learn fights in the own way, and sometimes people will die repeatedly until something clicks for them. And then there is just the matter of skill levels that will vary greatly when you bring this many people together in an MMO. I do wish that SE would remove the penalty for dropping so that way people who can't be bothered to try and help a less than stellar group can just bail vs kicking someone. Some of us like to help these people, most of you evidently do not.

If you want near perfection, perhaps stick to statics and friends you can rely on.

[HyoMinPark]

If you want near perfection, perhaps stick to statics and friends you can rely on.

I believe it’s been repeated numerous times in this thread already, but people aren’t expecting perfection—they’re expecting a level of competency that matches the level of the content players are participating in. Some people have more patience than others; some less.

Speaking personally, I’m far more patient with players that come forward and say that they are new, learning, or haven’t played in a while and are a bit rusty. I am less patient with players that continuously make mistakes to the point where progression during a piece of content is hindered, and who refuse to speak up when offers of assistance are made. And, if you really want to see me get snippy, I have no patience for those who blame others for their own shortcomings (e.g., the DPS in high-item level gear blaming someone for low damage when they’re the one doing subpar damage; the healer yelling at people for dying, but who didn’t even try to heal them; the tank that whines about dying but didn’t pop a cooldown for the tankbuster).

[JohnSpawnVFX]

If you want near perfection, perhaps stick to statics and friends you can rely on.

If you want learning parties, perhaps stick to your friends or make PFs.

There, see how that works like that as well?