Eureka is still ruined because of Pagos

[Alleo]

Sure, but, to do a proper test, let's remove gear from raids too, and let's see which one dies first, ok ?

No matter the reward the content itself must be fun too otherwise it will still die (as one can see with Diadem for example). I mean that one raid tier in HW had all the rewards the others had, yet it nearly destroyed the raiding scene because the fights were horrible. Thus rewards alone cant save a content in the long run. A new content with new zones should be alive for at least some time even without rewards if they are fun. If the only reason they are even staying alive from the very beginning is the reward thus it will drop death if that is done, then there is something wrong with it.

Having Pagos only out for a couple of months at a time where people have barely anything else to do and still have instances that are not filled, even if they are new is not a good sign.

[Solarra]

Personally, I'd like to finish the story and I'd quite like to have a look at Pyros, but I'm finding it hard impossible to push myself into entering Pagos again. I got to level 34, so finding a group should be easier now, and I know the instance has been nerfed, but since I didn't enjoy 20 - 34 at all, I just can't bring myself to do it.
Once I got out of Pagos, I discovered things I enjoyed a whole lot more: PotD, HoH, levelling a healer, unlocking SAM, crafting, making and levelling yet another alt. As a bonus, my hands were starting to hurt after the Pagos grind and that's cleared up nicely, even though I have been online practically every day.
I did get the Pagos boots while I was levelling but the chances of getting a full set of gear along with all the special gear seems slim to none. I already have a 380 weapon and I'm working towards the Omega weapon, so Pagos offers me nothing in terms of reward. If the actual gameplay was fun or engaging, I might be able to stomach it, but it isn't.

[Ceasaria]

At the beginning, I was maybe as many of you, quite skeptic about Pagos for several reasons :
- The map design
- The etherites position / what level to unlock them
- No mount until level 35
- Seems to have few evolutions compared to Anemos
- No Eureka gear

But, I didn’t complain or quit.
I wanted to explore/discover the whole map as I did for Anemos.

Sure it was hard, but more I played and more I enjoyed it, because it’s a level above in term of difficulty. This is not the difficulty of fighting monsters. This is the difficulty of fighting the environment, the ecosystem of Pagos and understand how to be able to move and progress with more ease.
This is unique in FFXIV. Anemos start a bit but Pagos is a step further.
For example, the different types of aggro are more present, have more impact here.
You can’t come in Pagos and think it work exactly as in the previous visited zones (Noscea, Othard…).
What I like is to experiment things, see what other have discovered to find and understand the rules of Pagos. They already begin this with Diadem (but was minimalist). I can understand that people who are only here for relic may have less interest.

With all I have read, I can’t understand how Pagos is worse than Anemos.
In Anemos, you have to follow the train and that it. Or farm solo, or with a small group.
But the objective is the same : Get Crystals (big and small) and exp.

In Pagos, sure we have this objective too (slightly different), but not only.
Adventurers get big crystals from fates, but for the small crystals, it’s just a part.
And, it’s not the efficient way to do it.
There come the Frozen Dragons. There are other monsters too like Spirits, Haunted, etc., but it’s more random.

I want to say again, in Anemos, it’s only Fates. Train is cool but there is no other real choices.
In Pagos, it’s Fates (ok more apparent with patch fix), Frozen Dragons, (other) Mutation/Adaptation mobs with Anubis (cold box) among them, and Rabbit Fates (for tresors & materials for Hat for a fate). I think I can add Cassie, because it’s the 2nd fate max level (and which could drop minion and earring) plus the fact that it’s the fate the more mysterious to trigger.

There is more diversity in Pagos than in Anemos.

If I had to do reproaches to Pagos would be :
- The level to unlock the 2nd etherite. It’s 30 now, but maybe 28 would have been nice.
- Esthetically the map is inferior to Anemos. Maybe add more variety in the different zones would have been nice. I found it very cool (animation and sound) that we can descent a large slope, middle map, to join the bottom level of the map from the heights. (Go to high level bunny fate toward low level bunny fate). SE could have built his map with several slope like this I think.
- Like for Anemos, story and quests need to be better.

I have my relic since a long time now and as for every relic, just one is good enough for me. I have returned on Pagos several times after for seeing Cassie Fate (and I'm glad to did it at least once), farming Anubis for the emote (unfortunately didn’t get it) and doing sometimes Rabbit Fates.

Now, I'm more focused on 4.4 + other games, and look forward to Pyros.

PS : You can add me as a defender of Pagos

[Lastelli]

I want to say again, in Anemos, it’s only Fates. Train is cool but there is no other real choices.
In Pagos, it’s Fates (ok more apparent with patch fix), Frozen Dragons, (other) Mutation/Adaptation mobs with Anubis (cold box) among them, and Rabbit Fates (for tresors & materials for Hat for a fate). I think I can add Cassie, because it’s the 2nd fate max level (and which could drop minion and earring) plus the fact that it’s the fate the more mysterious to trigger.

There is more diversity in Pagos than in Anemos.

That's precisely why people despise Eureka. It makes fate grinding, which was an easy and social way to progress your relic, incredibly inefficient and time consuming, while asking players to grind mobs for hours if they want to be efficient.
Unfortunately, hours of mobs grinding doesn't work. Players don't like it.
Pagos is indeed more diverse than anemos. Unfortunately, this diversity comes in the form of mindless mob grinding. Diversity means nothing if you're forced to do something you dislike.

Do you know what is more diverse than both anemos and pagos? The diadem.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That's precisely why people despise Eureka. It makes fate grinding, which was an easy and social way to progress your relic, incredibly inefficient and time consuming, while asking players to grind mobs for hours if they want to be efficient.
Unfortunately, hours of mobs grinding doesn't work. Players don't like it.
Pagos is indeed more diverse than anemos. Unfortunately, this diversity comes in the form of mindless mob grinding. Diversity means nothing if you're forced to do something you dislike.

Do you know what is more diverse than both anemos and pagos? The diadem.

This is my precise issue with Pagos. It still baffles me they insisted we kill mindless trash mobs instead of encouraging NMs. The latter have cool or fun mechanics and help break up the monotony of a long grind but we hardly get to see them. Now this wouldn't be so bad if there were alternatives. There isn't. You either kill endlessly amounts of trash mobs one/two at a time or you don't get a relic. Even dungeons quickly learned enforcing small pulls turned people off because trash mobs simply aren't interesting. So why they thought it'd work for Eureka makes no sense to me.

[LaylaTsarra]

This is my precise issue with Pagos. It still baffles me they insisted we kill mindless trash mobs instead of encouraging NMs. The latter have cool or fun mechanics and help break up the monotony of a long grind but we hardly get to see them. Now this wouldn't be so bad if there were alternatives. There isn't. You either kill endlessly amounts of trash mobs one/two at a time or you don't get a relic. Even dungeons quickly learned enforcing small pulls turned people off because trash mobs simply aren't interesting. So why they thought it'd work for Eureka makes no sense to me.

I have 3 relics and am leveling a 3rd toon and I didn't kill mods endlessly so that is factually not true. Challenge logs, NM Spawn groups and NM's go a long way toward getting a relic.

[Solarra]

At the beginning, I was maybe as many of you, quite skeptic about Pagos for several reasons :
- The map design
- The etherites position / what level to unlock them
- No mount until level 35
- Seems to have few evolutions compared to Anemos
- No Eureka gear

Those are all valid complaints.

I wanted to explore/discover the whole map as I did for Anemos.

...more I played and more I enjoyed it, because it’s a level above in term of difficulty. This is not the difficulty of fighting monsters. This is the difficulty of fighting the environment, the ecosystem of Pagos and understand how to be able to move and progress with more ease.

I like exploring too, but I didn't feel exploring in Pagos was much of an achievement.
Basically Pagos started off being a complete pain and levelling reduced the annoyances. That was my experience in Anemos too, and I've always felt that front-loading the difficulty to the extent they did was a mistake. The biggest difference was that I enjoyed Anemos once I reached level 5 and I went in long after I was max level and had my first weapon. You said yourself, you've got your one relic and now you are off doing other things. Pagos on it's own doesn't have any further appeal to you.

With all I have read, I can’t understand how Pagos is worse than Anemos.

-Mount at 35 meant no helping friends with lifts as you levelled.
-The map seems designed to keep people out of the higher level areas until they out-level a lot of the NMs around them (first Aetheryte especially).
-Aetherytes are unlocked way too late.
-The fate-spawning seems much harder to predict and when I was in, far fewer NMs spawned (instances being reused).
-The glamour and special gear is incredibly hard to get.
-Fewer people in instances often meant having to join a mixed-level group with reduced light and xp and even more grinding needed.
-Levelling up beyond the rest of the group could mean a kick, or you'd just leave if you were being decent.
-Much less chance of getting a raise due to people not wanting to risk losing xp (so much fun you guys say, yet not many people risk it).
-Design led to selfish play, MPK and arguments over Light Farming spots. The atmosphere was far less pleasant than Anemos where helping others didn't have a negative impact and people weren't competing for extremely limited numbers of mobs.

[Lastelli]

This is my precise issue with Pagos. It still baffles me they insisted we kill mindless trash mobs instead of encouraging NMs. The latter have cool or fun mechanics and help break up the monotony of a long grind but we hardly get to see them. Now this wouldn't be so bad if there were alternatives. There isn't. You either kill endlessly amounts of trash mobs one/two at a time or you don't get a relic. Even dungeons quickly learned enforcing small pulls turned people off because trash mobs simply aren't interesting. So why they thought it'd work for Eureka makes no sense to me.

I'm elemental level 35 and I have 800 pagos crystals and 32 frosted protean crystals, mainly obtained through fate grinding. I have yet to see cassie. I saw behemoth twice and horus once. It's just ridiculous.

I have 3 relics and am leveling a 3rd toon and I didn't kill mods endlessly so that is factually not true. Challenge logs, NM Spawn groups and NM's go a long way toward getting a relic.

You either spend hours killing trash or you spend even more hours waiting for NMs to spawn. The latter is more time consuming, but doesn't require any action from the player as long as someone in the train is killing mobs for them.
What happens then? In my experience, in an instance of 130 or so players (chaos), players take turns to kill mobs and while 10-15 people actively play (or should I say work), 100+ people just wait. This looks like terrible design to me.

[LaylaTsarra]

You either spend hours killing trash or you spend even more hours waiting for NMs to spawn. The latter is more time consuming, but doesn't require any action from the player as long as someone in the train is killing mobs for them.
What happens then? In my experience, in an instance of 130 or so players (chaos), players take turns to kill mobs and while 10-15 people actively play (or should I say work), 100+ people just wait. This looks like terrible design to me.

I do exactly what i said. I have 3 relics. I know what I do and I don't but the endless hate pushed on this forum. My 3rd toon will be 29 with the next nm and has almost 5 frosted already. She has 84 pagos crystals at the moment. After Salt and Light is done with I'll be back in pagos in short order.

Edit: And I might add I do spend time with one of my current 35 toons capping tomes there as well. She'll have a second relic (probably WHM given I've done RDM first) by the time the next installment arrives. It's silly easy to cap there.

[Bright-Flower]

SNIP

For me it's that Pagos takes all the flaws of Anemos, and on top of those flaws, adds an annoying map design, aetherytes at higher levels than they should be, void dragons where tip toeing around them is cute at first but quickly annoying, and more 'end game' grinding to get the relic, where as in Anemos if you were after just one relic you were almost done by the time you hit level cap. On top of that, while Anemos had upgradable armor, albeit just helm/chest/arms/legs/feet, having the upgradable armor helped to justify the time spent in Anemos and the dev resources put into it because you got more than just a weapon and some glamours etc out of it.

There is nothing Pagos had to offer that made it more fun than Anemos and only added annoyances and frustrations atop of it. I don't consider dragon light farming to be any more interesting and engaging than grinding to spawm NMs or following the train.

If you like Pagos that's fine, different people different tastes I'm not saying it's wrong to like Pagos, but those are the reasons why I found Anemos to be 'eh' but Pagos to be a pain. If they course correct on the issues I had with pagos specifically and spruce up the fundamental issues with Eureka as a whole I have, then