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  1. #161
    Player
    Bright-Flower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    2,828
    Character
    Nyr Ardyne
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    That mystery person seems to ramble on about a weapon and I'm guessing the final Eureka weapon will fit into that somehow, but yeah. There's really not any story to the relics in this expansion. We get the base weapon in our lvl 70 job quest, then just get crystals and misc stuff from bosses to make it stronger. I agree that so far the weapon is entirely separate from the story but suspect they will intersect at the end.

    The story itself is another issue. It's stretched so thin that across two zones we've actually learned very little beyond Galuf being name dropped. Most of the quests are just 'go find a thing and come back.' At least in Anemos we were getting new magecite for the boring, depthless magia board but in Pagos we didn't even get that.
    (1)

  2. #162
    Player
    Tint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    In the right-hand attic
    Posts
    4,325
    Character
    Karuru Karu
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Fisher Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    "Eureka is supposed to be for everyone" No, it's not, Yoshida said so at the very beginning.
    Eureka is content for a large group of players and you need people in your own level range to play this content effective. Then there are different objectives like leveling, killing specific NMs for loot, bunny fates, farming NMs in general, farming mutated monsters (lockboxes), farming light...

    When this content is meant for only a small part of the playerbase, then they messed up the design completely. You can't spread the people over the 15 level range and different objectives when there are only few of them, it is nearly impossible to bring a group together then.
    Not to mention that the design of the Pagos map itself spreads the players even more, by blocking the way for low level players with that bottleneck in the middle.
    (11)
    Last edited by Tint; 10-13-2018 at 04:43 AM.

  3. #163
    Player
    Edax's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Shirogane, W15 P60
    Posts
    2,002
    Character
    Edax Royeaux
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    I'm defending it because most people I ran into on the forum only use fallacy to attack it.
    "The majority hates it" No, it doesn't, unless you can show me significant numbers.

    Apart from that, I really don't care if you like it or not, you just need to use proper arguments to do it.
    Fine, here are your numbers, compiled by counting the numbers of players in the first 5 pages of this thread that criticized Pagos vs the players who defended it. This thread serves as a microcosm of the playerbase's opinion of Pagos as a whole.



    Complained About Pagos [First 5 Pages of this thread]: 27
    Dragoon4life
    MicahZerrshia
    Fawkes
    Altera
    SigmaOZ
    Edax
    Dragon_punch
    Taebok
    Bourne_Endeavor
    Ryaz
    Ash_
    Gun-Cat
    Kewitt
    Vahlnir
    Azper
    Rhindas
    Burningskull
    TheMightyMollusk
    Hyperia
    Deceptus
    DamianFatale
    Xau
    LalafellDown
    Berteaux_Braumegain
    Tyverus
    Alleo
    Cidel



    Defended Pagos [First 5 Pages of this thread]: 3
    Nixxe
    Bright-Flower
    Reynhart
    (12)
    Last edited by Edax; 10-13-2018 at 05:03 AM.

  4. #164
    Player
    Vahlnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Tent In the Middle of Nowhere
    Posts
    9,647
    Character
    Elan Centauri
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Edax View Post
    Fine, here are your numbers, compiled by counting the numbers of players in the first 5 pages of this thread that criticized Pagos vs the players who defended it. This thread serves as a microcosm of the playerbase's opinion of Pagos as a whole.



    Complained About Pagos [First 5 Pages of this thread]: 27
    Dragoon4life
    MicahZerrshia
    Fawkes
    Altera
    SigmaOZ
    Edax
    Dragon_punch
    Taebok
    Bourne_Endeavor
    Ryaz
    Ash_
    Gun-Cat
    Kewitt
    Vahlnir
    Azper
    Rhindas
    Burningskull
    TheMightyMollusk
    Hyperia
    Deceptus
    DamianFatale
    Xau
    LalafellDown
    Berteaux_Braumegain
    Tyverus
    Alleo
    Cidel



    Defended Pagos [First 5 Pages of this thread]: 3
    Nixxe
    Bright-Flower
    Reynhart
    Yeah. We might not be a "majority" of the player base here, but there's way more than enough of us (and there's way more than those listed here) to say "hey, there might actually be an issue here".
    (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida View Post
    Personal Housing
    While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.

  5. #165
    Player
    Bright-Flower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    2,828
    Character
    Nyr Ardyne
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    If that's counting my post on page 3 as defending Pagos I didn't really mean it that way. My post was more saying 'you can still do pagos, it's not dead.' I very much think Pagos messed up in a variety of ways compared to Anemos. I don't think Pagos is good, I just think it's not dead. Or it wasn't as of the night before the nerf patch.

    For the record I think Anemos was flawed but had a foundation SE could improve upon, but they mishandled Pagos with poor map design, excessive light grinding and overall underwhelming rewards without armor upgrades considering the amount of effort put into these zones.
    (4)

  6. #166
    Player
    Noodle_Trinidad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ul'Dah (1.0) / Limsa (2.0)
    Posts
    129
    Character
    Noodle Sil'vaadle
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    Sure, but, to do a proper test, let's remove gear from raids too, and let's see which one dies first, ok ?
    Are you ignoring that Diadem was essentially Eureka without a relic? Sure it had rewards but look at how fast that fizzled out.

    Still lets entertain the idea of a case where both Eureka and Raiding had no rewards. We’ll use Alphascape and Eureka for this Hypothetical.

    I) Story: I think its fair to say that after experiencing the story once both sets of content would die off completely after experiencing it once. What would have to be measured here is the initial pull and as it stands the Eureka storyline has nothing to pull on other than a namedrop meaning it would probably get ignored given its quests are simple fetch quests while Alphascape wraps up a fleshed out story that started in 3.5, it’d be more than enough to lure in when compared to Eureka. Off story alone Eureka would fizzle out fast.

    II) Engagement: This is really no contest. Alphascape offers content built around the fast paced actions that results from our combat system. Bosses with legitimate interesting mechanics. Eureka on the other hand offers chaining mobs that are buffed up versions of overworld mobs with no change to their scripts with the occassional NM. While the NM itself can be fun the grind to get them to pop clashes heavily with the combat system due to the fact that it was lifted from XI with no real attempt to adjust it for the pace of combat. Would most likely get dropped by the majority of the playerbase due to this fact alone. Once again a bigger lifespan goes to Alphascape.

    III) Replayability: Once again this is no contest, Eureka offers the same thing all the way up to Cap, unexplored systems already seen in the overworld alongside the mobs. With no reward to justify the grind there is no reason to tackle the content. Alphascape itself would die the instant Normal Mode is done, the kicker being it offers an alternative difficulty with altered movesets and with a secondary phase exclusive to Savage. Even without item rewards Savage would keep Alphascape relevant solely for the prestige, without the relic Eureka offers none of that. Another win to Alphascape’s longevity.

    If you disagree I’d like to hear your reasoning on how Eureka would outdo Alphascape in terms of longevity if neither had rewards. I actually invite anyone who disagrees in any form to make a rebuttal.
    (7)
    Last edited by Noodle_Trinidad; 10-13-2018 at 11:02 AM.

  7. #167
    Player
    Dragoon4life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    275
    Character
    Drako Redwyne
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 70
    Never said Pagos is dead. It just ruins Eureka. I don’t really get how anyone defends such garbage content. I think Pagos could seriously use quests / leves to be more in-gauging.

    I’ve always wondered if some monsters are Jealous that they’ll never be touched. Lol. But seriously though. For such a large area there’s no motivation to explore it because if you die in a bad location no one will res you and you will lose a quarter of your exp which stinks.
    (1)

  8. #168
    Player
    Eslina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    4
    Character
    Eslina Argon
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Need I clarify that Pagos and Eureka as a whole is something different they are trying. I for one liked it especially before the nerfs, the community got together and chained mobs like no other. Yeah it took a week to get a relic(which is record time) but you also made the friends along the way. The light couldve been done a little differently though. FFXI has the merit point system, so instead of light they couldve done that and you instead turn in merit points for the crystals. Merit points were like exp except you got a little bit less of it and it was a way to level after a cap.
    (0)

  9. #169
    Player
    Nestama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    4,351
    Character
    Nestama Eynfoetsyn
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    The issue with Pagos before the nerfs was that you couldn't casually chat and do your combos (in FFXI you can because the combat is slow and menu based) and you could not leave your group to help Raise a random person who died because if your group was missing one person, you would most likely lose the chain. You also needed everyone to be around the same elevel (so rip for those who are still elevel 17-20). Anemos had a friendly community (despite people refusing to wait before attacking NM's) because Chains didn't matter as NM's were a better option for experience. Pagos stripped away everything that made Anemos decent.

    I think Anemos back when was half-and-half when it came to people defending it and criticising it (I defended it because it was something new that SE could expand on with Pagos. They didn't). Pagos definitely has more people criticising it, especially from people (like myself) who found Anemos to be decent.
    (4)

  10. #170
    Player
    Bourne_Endeavor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    5,377
    Character
    Cassandra Solidor
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Vahlnir View Post
    Yeah. We might not be a "majority" of the player base here, but there's way more than enough of us (and there's way more than those listed here) to say "hey, there might actually be an issue here".
    People like to dismiss opinions online because "you're just a fraction of the community!" Which is fair because it tends to work out that way. The exception is when said opinions are entirely lop-sided. When the overwhelming majority of opinions online range from apathetic to outright critical, they often reflect a silent majority of player perception. Look no further than Mass Effect 3. IGN and BioWare did everything they could to deflect the outrage regarding its ending as "just people upset online." That 93% disapproval rating from a poll of over 100,000 people didn't mean anything. Funny how Amazon actually allowed free returns because they were getting bombarded with complaints, and EA themselves finally caved by releasing an Extended Cut DLC to address some of the criticism. That doesn't happen if those online opinions were just a fraction of your playerbase.

    Star Wars: Battlefront II is a more recent example. EA lost millions stubbornly insisting it was just angry redditors whining.

    Rounding this back to FFXIV. Yoshida has outright said Pyros will be closer to Anemos in terms of its evolution. If that doesn't put the final nail in Pagos' coffin, I don't know what will. The devs have all but given up trying to push Pagos. People hated that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestama View Post
    I think Anemos back when was half-and-half when it came to people defending it and criticising it (I defended it because it was something new that SE could expand on with Pagos. They didn't). Pagos definitely has more people criticising it, especially from people (like myself) who found Anemos to be decent.
    I frequently said Anemos had a decent foundation even if I found it a bit too basic. Nothing earth-shattering by any means, however it could easily have been improved on. Instead, the devs almost seemed annoyed we weren't chaining mobs, thus they enforced it as the only option. Considering even JP hated this, it backfired, hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    Sure, but, to do a proper test, let's remove gear from raids too, and let's see which one dies first, ok ?
    As per usual, you're erecting Strawmen. A better comparison would be putting a newly designed weapon but not the relic in Eureka. For argument's sake, let's say the Diamond weapons were Eureka locked while Omega weapons stay in Savage. In this scenario, Eureka dies, instantly. The relic is what keeps it alive because it's a highly coveted progression reward intended for more casual players that was locked behind niche content. As Nariel said, would your argument stay the same if the relic were moved to PvP? What if you needed eight clears of O12S or even Ultimate? Is that good design? Should people just accept it and elect not to have a relic this expansion?

    Speaking of Savage. You like to throw around fallacies yet this is one itself. Savage has an alternative: tomestones. You aren't required to beat O12S for your i400 gear. Likewise, the reward structure is intended more for longevity. People will still do Savage and Ultimate without rewards. They just won't bother more than a couple times since there isn't a point.
    (5)
    Last edited by Bourne_Endeavor; 10-13-2018 at 04:55 PM.

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