Culling and restructuring skills to make room for 5.0 abilities

[Shurrikhan]

@OP

It's like you've taken a coin with either side viable, and instead landed it right on its edge for an untenable position.

I agree that we both should and likely will lose our awkward click-and-quite-nearly-forget long maintenance buffs, but why would you, in lieu of that, suggest baking the buffs into another skill, let alone one that would, say, put DRG rotational priorities in direct conflict with themselves?

We're facing button bloat, but button bloat only has at most half to do with actual button count. The majority of it has to do with efficiency: how much gameplay--how many distinct rotational strings and tactics and strategies--can we form from the given buttons?

DRG's weaponskills allow for essentially 3 rotational strings in Single-target combat, with only a single decision path. I'd much rather see as many keys as we have now, or even a few more, with considerably more depth to each than to remove what little complexity we have as outlier to the doldrums of the majority of our keys on combo classes.

Likewise, MCH is hard-pressed to find variance, flow, or any real excitement from its weaponskills, even with the augmentation of Ammunition and Gun Heat -- the latter of which manages to feel far more esoteric and punishing than it feels exciting, intuitive, or wholly integral -- and in need of a more integral tool to let its systems compliment each other. Rather turning Hot Shot into a trait, taking with it its impact on and within Ammunition, why revise to aid the solution to Gun Heat's underwhelmingness?

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Assuming for a moment that it was possible for virtually every job to double-weave (or at least, let's say, 1.7-weave for a high-speed Monk or SkS-burdened NIN), would you prefer that some DPS CDs were multi-stage, allowing for a more frequent function normally, but doubling into a secondary function when pressed again within a short span, with that secondary function on a much longer CD if necessary? This secondary function could have a particularly short animation-lock, beneath the standard .7-ish seconds of most (maybe uniquely clipping the first shorter in a reuptook or continued animation or just fast in general).

B&S and BDO each give examples of this, but if job gauge integration is acceptable, then Geir/Nostrond -- or, a slightly more bankable/controlled version thereof, without such a long burst phase to potentially go to waste -- may be a better example yet.

[Jonnycbad]

@OP

It's like you've taken a coin with either side viable, and instead landed it right on its edge for an untenable position.

I agree that we both should and likely will lose our awkward click-and-quite-nearly-forget long maintenance buffs, but why would you, in lieu of that, suggest baking the buffs into another skill, let alone one that would, say, put DRG rotational priorities in direct conflict with themselves?

Samurai:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Hakaze
Combo Potency: 300
Combo Bonus: Increases damage dealt by 10%
Duration: 30s
Combo Bonus: Increases Kenki Gauge by 5

Monk:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
130 when executed from a target's flank.
Can only be executed when in raptor form.
Additional Effect: Increases damage by 10%
Duration: 15s
Additional Effect: Changes form to coeurl
Duration: 10s

Warrior:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Maim
Combo Potency: 280
Combo Bonus: Increases damage dealt by 10%
Duration: 30s
Defiance/Deliverance Combo Bonus: Increases Beast Gauge by 10

Dragoon:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
190 when executed from a target's flank.
Additional Effect: Increases damage dealt by 10%
Duration: 30s

Dragoon is the outlier here. Every melee (except NIN, because theirs is a permanent +20% from Dripping Blades trait) that gets a damage bonus from a weapon skill gets it from WITHIN their combo as opposed to a stand-alone GCD like Hot Shot/Heavy Thrust. Dark Knight and Paladin don't get a damage bonus from any of their weapon skills (DRK has a stance, and PLD has an oGCD), hence why I left WAR in there since they get the bonus from a WS.


As for double weaving, that's a technique discovered and perpetuated by PLAYERS. It's likely SE only ever intended for players to single weave because they "assume" the average player just plays with mediocre skill and doesn't parse, so they simply use oGCDs willy-nilly as oppose to more hardcore players that have optimal rotations and weaving techniques. So that said, don't base anything on "double weaving", which is something we as a community discovered but isn't technically intended, though is possible.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Assuming for a moment that it was possible for virtually every job to double-weave (or at least, let's say, 1.7-weave for a high-speed Monk or SkS-burdened NIN), would you prefer that some DPS CDs were multi-stage, allowing for a more frequent function normally, but doubling into a secondary function when pressed again within a short span, with that secondary function on a much longer CD if necessary? This secondary function could have a particularly short animation-lock, beneath the standard .7-ish seconds of most (maybe uniquely clipping the first shorter in a reuptook or continued animation or just fast in general).

B&S and BDO each give examples of this, but if job gauge integration is acceptable, then Geir/Nostrond -- or, a slightly more bankable/controlled version thereof, without such a long burst phase to potentially go to waste -- may be a better example yet.

Could be interesting. While far too complex for the devs to likely consider, I have always fancied a system where the order of our combos change the final result. An example would be: Full Thrust --> Vorpol Thrust --> Chaos Thrust. Instead of that being a broken combo, have Chaos Thrust become something else. It'd be a neat way to upgrade the combo abilities without taking up more hot bar space. Been ages since I played BnS and BDO but I believe they do something similar.

snip

Once again, Warrior and Dragoon are more or less the same. While Storm's Eye combos off Maim, it serves literally no other purpose than to give you a 10% buff. You will never touch Storm's Eye unless it's to refresh that buff. Which is precisely how Heavy Thrust works. Unless they're adding another GCD to press, this is simply taking away a button because people can't be bothered to pay attention and keep Heavy Thrust up.

[Shurrikhan]

Dragoon is the outlier here. Every melee (except NIN, because theirs is a permanent +20% from Dripping Blades trait) that gets a damage bonus from a weapon skill gets it from WITHIN their combo as opposed to a stand-alone GCD like Hot Shot/Heavy Thrust. Dark Knight and Paladin don't get a damage bonus from any of their weapon skills (DRK has a stance, and PLD has an oGCD), hence why I left WAR in there since they get the bonus from a WS.

Fundamentally different. DRG has only one viable combo sequence. Unless the target will die before you can get 4 ticks, CT-combo will always be used first. SAM has to pick BETWEEN two different damage bonuses, one of which is generally more important and the other is more important to oGCDs and Higanbana. Monk must choose from among 3 different abilities available within its stance (in 99% of cases, between its damage bonus and its highest direct potency weaponskill). They CHOOSE among differing forms of damage gains. Dragoon does not. It has zero choice. But while you'd likely maintain that factor, your suggestion would DRG to delay both its DoT and on-target damage bonus in order to gain its larger damage bonus from VT first. At best, you'd create the (incredibly awkward) option of TT-VT before normal comboing (ID-Db-CT-WT-F&C-TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT).

As for double weaving, that's a technique discovered and perpetuated by PLAYERS. It's likely SE only ever intended for players to single weave because they "assume" the average player just plays with mediocre skill and doesn't parse, so they simply use oGCDs willy-nilly as oppose to more hardcore players that have optimal rotations and weaving techniques. So that said, don't base anything on "double weaving", which is something we as a community discovered but isn't technically intended, though is possible.

Do you see any mention of double weaving?

@OP

It's like you've taken a coin with either side viable, and instead landed it right on its edge for an untenable position.

I agree that we both should and likely will lose our awkward click-and-quite-nearly-forget long maintenance buffs, but why would you, in lieu of that, suggest baking the buffs into another skill, let alone one that would, say, put DRG rotational priorities in direct conflict with themselves?

We're facing button bloat, but button bloat only has at most half to do with actual button count. The majority of it has to do with efficiency: how much gameplay--how many distinct rotational strings and tactics and strategies--can we form from the given buttons?

DRG's weaponskills allow for essentially 3 rotational strings in Single-target combat, with only a single decision path. I'd much rather see as many keys as we have now, or even a few more, with considerably more depth to each than to remove what little complexity we have as outlier to the doldrums of the majority of our keys on combo classes.

Likewise, MCH is hard-pressed to find variance, flow, or any real excitement from its weaponskills, even with the augmentation of Ammunition and Gun Heat -- the latter of which manages to feel far more esoteric and punishing than it feels exciting, intuitive, or wholly integral -- and in need of a more integral tool to let its systems compliment each other. Rather turning Hot Shot into a trait, taking with it its impact on and within Ammunition, why revise to aid the solution to Gun Heat's underwhelmingness?

Nonetheless, I'll go ahead and address this.

If SE does not treat what is possible as if it were intended, they are being intentionally foolish. Exploits will be taken where given. Strategies will be taken where effective. It's not on the players to handicap themselves just because development "assumed" the low-hanging fruit somehow wouldn't be taken.

[Shurrikhan]

Could be interesting. While far too complex for the devs to likely consider, I have always fancied a system where the order of our combos change the final result. An example would be: Full Thrust --> Vorpol Thrust --> Chaos Thrust. Instead of that being a broken combo, have Chaos Thrust become something else. It'd be a neat way to upgrade the combo abilities without taking up more hot bar space. Been ages since I played BnS and BDO but I believe they do something similar.

Oh, heck yeah. I've been pushing for that since 1.8, though in varying iterations, and heavily after ARR dropped. (Oddly enough, the Battle Regimen system that was abandoned when Yoshida took over was probably the closest we've gotten, though it was more for Skillchain-esque party variations thereof, replaced thereafter by wholly linear combos.)

I'm just not sure if I prefer arbitrary combo trees or simpler embedded effects that synergize with different 'paths'. Additionally, it may be difficult to get the most out of such a system while still using a fixed GCD, rather than animation-based uptime usage.

Aside/for others' reference: In BnS and BDO, "combos" are simply whatever abilities can animation-flow (animation-cancel from a shared anchor/return point) such that the time taken to complete a particular sequence of actions is less than the normal sum of the individual actions' time taken. BnS and BDO also to some degree allow for secondary effects to be applied by lower-cooldown skills, with that effect then going on a longer, separate cooldown. For instance, a sidestepping leg-chop could normally be there just to evade and deal damage, but its first use or first doubled use might apply a hamstring effect and superarmor (see Dysidia) over the animation as well. The skill itself would be spammable, but the effect would have about a 12-second cooldown.

[Shurrikhan]

True, Tornado Kick and Purification at least got some uses this expansion, but could use another look. Personally, I would like to see Tornado Kick unchanged, but Perfect Balance changed to just instantly give 3 stacks of GL. That way you can use Tornado Kick every time Perfect Balance comes off cooldown as an added DPS move instead of being just marginally viable at the end of a Riddle of Fire burst phase or before a boss jumps.

Many a top parse uses Tornado Kick every 30 seconds... It's far from being marginalized.

Personally I just want to see GL apply from Wind Tackle itself, rather than Riddle of Wind. Standardize Shoulder Tackle variants' damage at 130 each, or perhaps 140 for Flame Tackle. Change Riddle of Wind to allow a second dash from Fists of Wind without stun or damage for 10 seconds after using any Shoulder Tackle variant. That way you don't need to pop 4 oGCDs for every TK (TK-FoW-WT-RoW). Also, let Earth Tackle knock self back if the enemy can't be moved, to give it at least some usefulness.

[MPNZ]

It would be nice if they reworked thing to be less dull in the older content, but while keeping the number of player actions at 28. IThey could return flame arrow to bards and replace it with an action that would cause an explosion to enemies marked with windbite that would cancel all wind bite Dots , inflict damage to enemies in a certain radius, and then inflict A DoT like flame bite to all enemies inside the aoe for 15 seconds. And, all they would need to do is turn buffs like battle voice and raging strikes into traits

[Lubu_Mykono]

all these people talking about melee DPS levels based on rotations and positioning
We need another utility DPS like ninja.......

[Bourne_Endeavor]

all these people talking about melee DPS levels based on rotations and positioning
We need another utility DPS like ninja.......

If the leaks about Blue Mage turn out accurate, it's supposed to be a melee support DPS similar to Ninja. So... fingers crossed.