Thread: Culling and restructuring skills to make room for 5.0 abilities

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Many a top parse uses Tornado Kick every 30 seconds... It's far from being marginalized.

Personally I just want to see GL apply from Wind Tackle itself, rather than Riddle of Wind. Standardize Shoulder Tackle variants' damage at 130 each, or perhaps 140 for Flame Tackle. Change Riddle of Wind to allow a second dash from Fists of Wind without stun or damage for 10 seconds after using any Shoulder Tackle variant. That way you don't need to pop 4 oGCDs for every TK (TK-FoW-WT-RoW). Also, let Earth Tackle knock self back if the enemy can't be moved, to give it at least some usefulness.

My own personal experience is that the TK every 30 seconds (they're swapping stances to use Riddle of Wind instead of Fire Tackle) is that the DPS increase is only marginal. Yes it's something you want to do if your latency is low enough and getting that minor buff over other monks is important to you, but it's not a massive increase. This is at least from my own attempts to do the same thing. Regardless, if Perfect Balance immediately gave you 3 GL stacks, then there's no need to swap stances to Fists of Wind in order to use Tornado Kick on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by wereotter

My own personal experience is that the TK every 30 seconds (they're swapping stances to use Riddle of Wind instead of Fire Tackle) is that the DPS increase is only marginal. Yes it's something you want to do if your latency is low enough and getting that minor buff over other monks is important to you, but it's not a massive increase. This is at least from my own attempts to do the same thing. Regardless, if Perfect Balance immediately gave you 3 GL stacks, then there's no need to swap stances to Fists of Wind in order to use Tornado Kick on a regular basis.

Okay, but... why would you want to make using TK every 30/60 seconds obligatory? It's disruptive to "smooth" rotation even then, and per 60 it'd lose everything about it that would otherwise make it feel... like TK, all while costing Monk its most noteworthy mechanic.

Wildfire removed because it's redundant with Overheat. The latter already fills the role of the "bursty burst in a short window" (obviously, the damage would have to be adjusted somewhere to make up for WF).
Gauss Barrel turned into a trait so it wouldn't "drop off" after an overheat. You'd still have downtime, but now without that meaningless button to press to reapply the Gauss.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So you'd rather remove the less criticized and more iconic damage cooldown than the auxiliary mechanic highly criticized for its clunkiness?

Honestly, I feel like we'd see relatively little perceived loss from the removal of Overheat. That's no reason to remove it, but, compare that to Wildfire, without which MCH would feel awkwardly lacking of not only something rotationally and aesthetically identity-driving, but a seemingly obligatory damage-buff cooldown.

I'd like to see both revised, honestly -- Wildfire to go off instantly before a jump (if the boss would go immune during said jump) or at least to have a manual detonation procedure, and to deal AoE damage on eruption, and something far more significant to add more noticeable gameplay prior to Overheat itself as to feel more dynamic and less like a subtle trap.

I would also prefer them to expand on the overheat mech instead of wildfire.

I think people are attached to the former simply because it was the first introduced. If WF was the new SB ability and overheat the HW mec, people would probably complain even more about wildfire.

I like the heat mechanic (conceptually) because its more than a simply button press that you could almost macro once every 60s.

Overheat flaw is that it is on top of wildfire and both of them just make the whole job clunky and less fun to play. (imo) I don't see them as problematic independently.
The MCH just have too many isolated mechanic that don't sync with each other.
Namely the wildfire, bullet and overheat.

Another flaw would be that the mechanic is currently a bit bland. Only 1 key to dump the heat, 1 to raise and 1 to stabilisé it.

It's a bit like the SCH with the Eatherflow in 2.0 where all you could do was either a dome or a free heal. But the successive addition of new eatherflow based ability gave the SCH a strong identity and unique game play compared to AST/WHM having mostly similar healing skills.

There is nothing to expand on Wildfire. It's a cd thats it. And you just align a bunch of other cd on a 30/60s CD.

The one tiny fun part I like about WF is that it's tied to rapide fire, the reduced gcd is fun. But this could arguably be transfer to the overheat mec where overheating also reduces the GCD by 1s for X skills.

On the other hand, there's plenty of things they could do with the overheat mechanic.
You can tie new skills / ability to it, but there is nothing you can do for wildfire beside adding more 30/60s based cd on top of it.

And I don't know about you but my definition of fun isn't to have a boring rotation for 50s and then press 15 keys simultaneously for 10s.

one or the other will probably have to go but I think dropping the overheat mechanic would be a mistake because there's so much they could do with it.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So you'd rather remove the less criticized and more iconic damage cooldown than the auxiliary mechanic highly criticized for its clunkiness?

Honestly, I feel like we'd see relatively little perceived loss from the removal of Overheat. That's no reason to remove it, but, compare that to Wildfire, without which MCH would feel awkwardly lacking of not only something rotationally and aesthetically identity-driving, but a seemingly obligatory damage-buff cooldown.

I'd like to see both revised, honestly -- Wildfire to go off instantly before a jump (if the boss would go immune during said jump) or at least to have a manual detonation procedure, and to deal AoE damage on eruption, and something far more significant to add more noticeable gameplay prior to Overheat itself as to feel more dynamic and less like a subtle trap.

How is Wildfire more iconic than Overheat? WF being merely a timed dot... I don't see that being more iconic that the whole heat gauge/overheating/cooling down mechanic. Also the previous poster is a bit shallow comparing WF to Mudras.

My removal suggestion is only because both OH and WF behave almost the same (short time window to press all your keys), but if they reworked them, well it would be fine too.

Originally Posted by Sylvain

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It's disturbing to see people with such a different view on MCH, but I guess that's why the class is broken to this day. MCH is anything but isolated mechanics, the whole class is basically a single mechanic since absolutely everything syncs up with Wildfire burst. I also view Rapid Fire as one of the greatest design flaws because it makes the class near unplayable at higher latency. The fast gcd wouldn't be a problem by itself (see RDM), but the total-kit-sync compounds the issue into a big problem due to ogcd weaving.