Thread: Culling and restructuring skills to make room for 5.0 abilities

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I would rather press 1234 than spam 1111. At least I'm moving my finger, no matter how slight. And therein lies why people dislike the skill consolidation system. It's neither more difficult nor necessarily interesting, it simply feels better. Currently, <combo consolidation> is simply reducing everything to the healer equivalent of spamming Broil. Sure, you have different animations, but it feels very boring to me. Just like it does on them. They aren't going to add 5+ GCDs to DRG either, thus I'll spend most of 5.x spamming 1 and 2 endlessly. I prefer 1234 and alt 1234. As I said, at least I move my fingers slightly compared to not at all.

I get that. Though bloated, I'd likely still use the 1234 due to muscle memory and as not to trip up from inattention, myself. I just don't consider there to be enough merit to forbid the option for those who are running out of comfortable button space (given hand size, etc.) and for whom the merit of comfort is greater than that of easier timing.

If we had more combos or different branching combos, maybe it'd work better.

Agreed. And while Fire IV can feel satisfying despite its relatively redundant nature, that's hardly true of Heavy Shot, Malefic, or Stone, whatever their ranks. But that'd mean requiring more than 3 GCD actions from each melee (well, 4 from SAM and up to 9 from MNK)... I just hope XIV doesn't continue to assume players irredeemable stupid, under the guise of "combo" systems.

Regardless, it's not really a solution anyway because it doesn't help the Casters. Even on the melee/tank side, only Ninja and Paladin are crying for hot bar space.

There is some fairly considerable bind-trimming the non-melee can benefit from too, though.

Why should Enochian, Fire IV, and Blizzard IV be separate keys when they cannot be used separately? Why should Summon Bahamut be separate from Enkindle Bahamut? Or DWT from Deathflare, so long as the latter could not be queued before the first has finished activating? And Red Mage has its own melee combo.

Further, Straighter Shot is virtually never taken over Refulgent Arrow and Gauss Barrel may as well be a trait, just as Darkside and either tank DPS stance may as well be (Sword Oath and Deliverance merely deactivating during their respective tank stances).

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Snip

I feel like all DRG's GCD rotation needs to make it interesting is to add a dynamic finisher without a positional requirement that you could use at any point instead of F&C/WT or after using one or both in their appropriate sequences, with higher potency scaling than they have to maintain average DPS, but not high enough to make the positionals not matter. I don't feel that F&C and WT on their own are that interesting either. However, I can see how to make the combo length and order matter and be more interesting, and offer multiple breakpoints and rotations based on skill speed and fight dynamics, which is worth keeping the current combos around for. And it only takes one button to accomplish this. Using mechanics that they've already introduced into DRG's current kit.


I don't feel that we need to start their combos from a single point so much as we need to have Heavy Thrust merged into Impulse Drive and that finisher to be added. Sure, SE could pair it down a little more and merge ID and HT with True Thrust, but it doesn't really make sense to allow their filler combo to apply their damage buff. Might as well bake it into their potencies instead at that point, basically. It would likely shift to Disembowel or Chaos Thrust in that case, which makes even less sense given the names used for those skills, without adding much more to them either.

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because it wouldn't be optional. They aren't going to design a system allowing skill consolidation while still pruning out abilities as both require time and re-balancing to some extent. Therefore, if the latter were implemented, it would undoubtedly result in them not pruning anything, essentially telling people who dislike it to "suck it up" and deal with an ever growing hotbar space.



Given they brought Heavy Thrust down from 15% to 10% because some people found it too difficult keeping the buff consistently. I, sadly, have my doubts they'll stop catering to the criminally dumb crowd.

There is some fairly considerable bind-trimming the non-melee can benefit from too, though.

See, this are scenarios in which merging buttons together makes more sense. It's a bit less cut and dry for Black Mage, though I'm not well versed enough to discuss how their rotation works button wise. Meanwhile, I have advocated Refulgent should essentially upgrade over Straight Shot when it procs because you'll always take it in that scenario. Gauss Barrel and Darkside shouldn't even be buttons anymore. They do nothing as you'll never turn them off.



We call this Nastrond. Dragoon's entire kit is built around storing eyes and unleashing them. We don't need nor necessarily want a Midare or Tornado Kick equivalent because that isn't what Dragoon is. We're not meant to be a high burst job any more than Ninja, who themselves lacks a "finisher." Both are intended to offer sustained damage throughout a given encounter.

I do not mean Nastrond. I'm specifically referring to the GCD rotation only here. Nastrond is part of DRG's delayed burst window and does not influence their GCD rotation whatsoever. Only their oGCDs charge it and F&C/WT maintain BotD for it. When I say dynamic finisher, I'm referring to their combos, and only that. Nowhere did I mention their oGCDs or BotD. I'd still expect it to charge up BotD's duration like WT/F&C do. In fact, I'd expect this new finisher to charge it by 20s rather than 10, regardless of where it's used. That way you aren't losing duration when trying to go for shorter combos instead of longer ones. That's the only interaction it would need to keep it functioning in the same way that the current kit does while facilitating the choice DRG needs in their GCD rotation. It has no interaction with Nastrond or LotD beyond BotD maintenance.

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I know what you said, but Nastrond is the dynamic finisher, thus it doesn't need another on the GCD. Taking away Heavy Thrust just to add another ability that combos off Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust doesn't really accomplish anything. A 20 gauge boost from a single GCD is equally pointless. Dragoon rarely has issues maintaining BotD. And in scenarios where you know the boss will go untargetable before you can finish a combo, Sonic Thrust is actually a better alternative because it only requires two GCDs. In this hypothetical, it will still take four GCDs to reach this "dynamic finisher," which can already be accomplished. Furthermore, the new finisher would require re-balancing all of DRG's potencies as Heavy Thrust isn't particularly strong outright. That, or they balk the 10% into the potency itself in lieu of slotting it on Impulse Drive.

Regardless, it's a needless change that doesn't really do anything except give Dragoon a potentially flashier ability to end a combo on and make it even more streamlined for casual players who can't keep up a single buff.

The main use of it changes depending on your skill speed break points that alter your filler (If you can get 12 GCDs in every buff refresh you get the choice of 6/6 with the most positionals or 4/4/4 with the least, 13 forces 4/4/5 with the ability to choose where that extra positional winds up, 14 gets some combination of 4/4/6 or 4/5/5). It doesn't affect what you're doing with your jumps. It barely would affect your DPS. All it really gives you more ways to deal with positional requirements based on the fight, in which you make decisions on based on your skill speed and knowledge. That's the reason for adding it. The only reason it needs the 20s BotD boost is for that 4/4/4 case in specific and not because I want to alter their oGCD dynamics at all. That part of their kit is fine as it is.

Shurrikan specifically mentioned wanting to make more decisions when it came to DRG's combo management. This was addressing that, and nothing else. I'm not mucking with Nastrond or anything else in DRG's kit. I'm giving them slightly more to think about at a high level without hurting their baseline at all.

Originally Posted by ShinShimon

On that note, they should adjust the buff/debuff/DoT timers so that the ideal rotation is a simple alternation between two combos, like with Dragoon. The current staggered rotation where the first two steps alternate every other combo, but the last step alternates every third, is really weird and off-putting. As far as I'm aware, no other class has anything like that, and it's even worse with Monk because every change to the shifting steps of the combo also affects your positional dance.

Please don't attempt to simplify the only class with some modular thinking still regularly involved... The rhythm is not hard, and that syncopation is the only thing allowing for many of the enjoyable rotations at higher Skill Speeds. All Monk really needs in that regard, as per virtually any other job with a DoT, is some matter of eclipsed DoT duration rollover (e.g. if you clip Demo at 1 second remaining, the replacement lasts 19; at 2 seconds, lasts √2 seconds beyond regular duration, etc). That way the clipping is less punishing, without forcing an early clip to always be the optimal choice over (after a rollover) a delayed refresh.

If it really is crippling for you, play at 2.6k+ SkS, wherein everything is generally every third outside of RoF. (Demolish every quarter only if you'll miss fewer ticks than you can get in bonus damage out of aligning a delayed Demo usage -- or two, in RoF's case. Returns to 2-3 during RoF.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

The main use of it changes depending on your skill speed break points that alter your filler (If you can get 12 GCDs in every buff refresh you get the choice of 6/6 with the most positionals or 4/4/4 with the least, 13 forces 4/4/5 with the ability to choose where that extra positional winds up, 14 gets some combination of 4/4/6 or 4/5/5). It doesn't affect what you're doing with your jumps. It barely would affect your DPS. All it really gives you more ways to deal with positional requirements based on the fight, in which you make decisions on based on your skill speed and knowledge. That's the reason for adding it.

To be honest, you could get nearly as much positional freedom with two simple changes:
- F&C and WT are no longer combo abilities. Instead, they are unlocked for 10 seconds, to be used at any time without breaking current combos, after their respective combo ender (FT or CT).
- Remove the damage bonus on the second strike of Lance Mastery, compensating for the loss elsewhere.

At that point, though, I'd take no issue with Heavy Thrust being removed to be baked into traits, baseline potencies, or Disembowel (where Disembowel, Shadowfang, Yukikaze, and Storm's Eye have only a half effect on jobs that cannot apply their own version of that debuff). I'd still prefer the two combos allow for crossover, more alike to Monk combos, but that F&C and WT interaction would at least increase the sense of button efficiency and rotational freedom.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I feel like all DRG's GCD rotation needs to make it interesting is to add a dynamic finisher without a positional requirement that you could use at any point instead of F&C/WT or after using one or both in their appropriate sequences, with higher potency scaling than they have to maintain average DPS, but not high enough to make the positionals not matter. I don't feel that F&C and WT on their own are that interesting either. However, I can see how to make the combo length and order matter and be more interesting, and offer multiple breakpoints and rotations based on skill speed and fight dynamics, which is worth keeping the current combos around for. And it only takes one button to accomplish this. Using mechanics that they've already introduced into DRG's current kit.

I feel like we already have plenty of abilities, if we'd just actually make good use of F&C and WT, allowing for strategic interactions between them. But, that's asking quite a lot.

I'll edit or post again with an example if you're curious of how that might be done. (It has to do with powerful unique effects that work off the proceeding weaponskill being added to each of F&C and WT.)

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

The main use of it changes depending on your skill speed break points that alter your filler (If you can get 12 GCDs in every buff refresh you get the choice of 6/6 with the most positionals or 4/4/4 with the least, 13 forces 4/4/5 with the ability to choose where that extra positional winds up, 14 gets some combination of 4/4/6 or 4/5/5). It doesn't affect what you're doing with your jumps. It barely would affect your DPS. All it really gives you more ways to deal with positional requirements based on the fight, in which you make decisions on based on your skill speed and knowledge. That's the reason for adding it. The only reason it needs the 20s BotD boost is for that 4/4/4 case in specific and not because I want to alter their oGCD dynamics at all. That part of their kit is fine as it is.

No offense, but do you even play Dragoon? Because what you're describing here demonstrates a distinct lack of even general knowledge. Dragoon does not optimize around Skill Speed whatsoever. Currently, it has two tiers, 655 and an absurd 2,405. It wants nothing to do with the Skill Speed otherwise. Your proposed finisher will not change that as Skill Speed in between these two thresholds causes clipping issues or messes up skill alignment around your Blood for Blood and Dragon Sight windows unless you have bad ping. I have no idea where you're getting this 6/6 or 4/4/4 criteria from. Do you mean under the 10% from what I now assume is Impulse Drive? Because it's certainly not any oGCD buff.

Regardless, this entire revision bogs to wanting a skill that allows Dragoon to skip a positional if they get caught in a scenario where they can't reach the flank or rear. Not only are those situations decidedly rare, it's a meager 40 potency lose per GCD. The whole point of positionals is trying to determine exactly where to position yourself to lose as little as possible. Adding a non-positional GCD just trivializes Dragoon even further. Not to mention, this hypothetical ability has no real benefit. It's either too weak that you will ever prioritize it over Fang and Claw, Wheeling Thrust or simply using True North. Or it's equal/better in overall potency, thus making the aforementioned two useless.

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Shurrikan specifically mentioned wanting to make more decisions when it came to DRG's combo management. This was addressing that, and nothing else. I'm not mucking with Nastrond or anything else in DRG's kit. I'm giving them slightly more to think about at a high level without hurting their baseline at all.

Actually, I originally brought that up. Nevertheless, this addresses nothing. My proposal was Vorpal Thrust comboing into Chaos Thrust changes the latter's effect. Not adding a useless "finisher" to your end combo just to save 40 potency in the rare circumstance True North is on CD.