Thread: Culling and restructuring skills to make room for 5.0 abilities

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Dragoon is the outlier here. Every melee (except NIN, because theirs is a permanent +20% from Dripping Blades trait) that gets a damage bonus from a weapon skill gets it from WITHIN their combo as opposed to a stand-alone GCD like Hot Shot/Heavy Thrust. Dark Knight and Paladin don't get a damage bonus from any of their weapon skills (DRK has a stance, and PLD has an oGCD), hence why I left WAR in there since they get the bonus from a WS.

Fundamentally different. DRG has only one viable combo sequence. Unless the target will die before you can get 4 ticks, CT-combo will always be used first. SAM has to pick BETWEEN two different damage bonuses, one of which is generally more important and the other is more important to oGCDs and Higanbana. Monk must choose from among 3 different abilities available within its stance (in 99% of cases, between its damage bonus and its highest direct potency weaponskill). They CHOOSE among differing forms of damage gains. Dragoon does not. It has zero choice. But while you'd likely maintain that factor, your suggestion would DRG to delay both its DoT and on-target damage bonus in order to gain its larger damage bonus from VT first. At best, you'd create the (incredibly awkward) option of TT-VT before normal comboing (ID-Db-CT-WT-F&C-TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT).

As for double weaving, that's a technique discovered and perpetuated by PLAYERS. It's likely SE only ever intended for players to single weave because they "assume" the average player just plays with mediocre skill and doesn't parse, so they simply use oGCDs willy-nilly as oppose to more hardcore players that have optimal rotations and weaving techniques. So that said, don't base anything on "double weaving", which is something we as a community discovered but isn't technically intended, though is possible.

Do you see any mention of double weaving?

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

@OP

It's like you've taken a coin with either side viable, and instead landed it right on its edge for an untenable position.

I agree that we both should and likely will lose our awkward click-and-quite-nearly-forget long maintenance buffs, but why would you, in lieu of that, suggest baking the buffs into another skill, let alone one that would, say, put DRG rotational priorities in direct conflict with themselves?

We're facing button bloat, but button bloat only has at most half to do with actual button count. The majority of it has to do with efficiency: how much gameplay--how many distinct rotational strings and tactics and strategies--can we form from the given buttons?

DRG's weaponskills allow for essentially 3 rotational strings in Single-target combat, with only a single decision path. I'd much rather see as many keys as we have now, or even a few more, with considerably more depth to each than to remove what little complexity we have as outlier to the doldrums of the majority of our keys on combo classes.

Likewise, MCH is hard-pressed to find variance, flow, or any real excitement from its weaponskills, even with the augmentation of Ammunition and Gun Heat -- the latter of which manages to feel far more esoteric and punishing than it feels exciting, intuitive, or wholly integral -- and in need of a more integral tool to let its systems compliment each other. Rather turning Hot Shot into a trait, taking with it its impact on and within Ammunition, why revise to aid the solution to Gun Heat's underwhelmingness?

Nonetheless, I'll go ahead and address this.

If SE does not treat what is possible as if it were intended, they are being intentionally foolish. Exploits will be taken where given. Strategies will be taken where effective. It's not on the players to handicap themselves just because development "assumed" the low-hanging fruit somehow wouldn't be taken.

all these people talking about melee DPS levels based on rotations and positioning
We need another utility DPS like ninja.......

Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

all these people talking about melee DPS levels based on rotations and positioning
We need another utility DPS like ninja.......

If the leaks about Blue Mage turn out accurate, it's supposed to be a melee support DPS similar to Ninja. So... fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If the leaks about Blue Mage turn out accurate, it's supposed to be a melee support DPS similar to Ninja. So... fingers crossed.

That's my hope as well. Though, I also hope that it has more varied and versatile means of support than just Enmity (SS/SW) and Damage (TA).

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's my hope as well. Though, I also hope that it has more varied and versatile means of support than just Enmity (SS/SW) and Damage (TA).

I'd hope that whatever support it gets could equal out to those, at least, and not be something like verraise.

What I want to happen: No new abilities for samurai at all. I think the kit is perfect in terms of what it does and how it plays and I can't imagine anything new added that wouldn't just be pointless bloat (group utility would be good bloat though). What I would prefer is a series of traits that files off some of the trickier parts of the rotation so mediocre players can get a better handle on it. I.e. I want them to cut the sen cost of hagakure and remove the kenki costs on gyoten and yaten since these skills all don't make obvious sense (as in you are a fresh samurai just reading the tooltips for the first time) how good/bad they are.

What I think will happen: PvP 1 button combos will make the transition to PvE, freeing up space for 4 new abilities. One of them will be some weak but appreciated group utility and the other 3 will be more damage abilities that I can't imagine how they fit into the rotation but are probably going to be boring things like a mini-gurren, another 3rd eye triggered ability, and maybe a defensive cooldown.

Joke option: I want an ATE during meditate where it shows an arrow and if I push the arrow it gives bonus kenki and then shows another arrow for more kenki and so on and so on until meditate ends.

Originally Posted by Arkdra

WWhat I think will happen: PvP 1 button combos will make the transition to PvE, freeing up space for 4 new abilities. One of them will be some weak but appreciated group utility and the other 3 will be more damage abilities that I can't imagine how they fit into the rotation but are probably going to be boring things like a mini-gurren, another 3rd eye triggered ability, and maybe a defensive cooldown.

Yoshida has stated outright in his recent interviews the one button combos will not be transitioning over to PvE. And thank god for that.

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yoshida has stated outright in his recent interviews the one button combos will not be transitioning over to PvE. And thank god for that.

Yeah, because 123 is much more interesting than 111

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah, because 123 is much more interesting than 111

I would rather press 1234 than spam 1111. At least I'm moving my finger, no matter how slight. And therein lies why people dislike the skill consolidation system. It's neither more difficult nor necessarily interesting, it simply feels better. If we had more combos or different branching combos, maybe it'd work better. Currently, it's simply reducing everything to the healer equivalent of spamming Broil. Sure, you have different animations, but it feels very boring to me. Just like it does on them. They aren't going to add 5+ GCDs to DRG either, thus I'll spend most of 5.x spamming 1 and 2 endlessly. I prefer 1234 and alt 1234. As I said, at least I move my fingers slightly compared to not at all.

Regardless, it's not really a solution anyway because it doesn't help the Casters. Even on the melee/tank side, only Ninja and Paladin are crying for hot bar space.