what is it with these damn elitists in this game?

[van_arn]

I'mma stop you right there chief. 90% of the players aren't interested in learning. They want to be carried. Nobody expects perfection. We expect general knowledge of the workings of your job. Like not doing trick attack on the first GCD.

At this point, I'd be content if I could just trust people to push buttons.

[KaivaC]

At this point, if be content if I could just trust people to push buttons.

You are very blunt...and to the point, with no filter at all...

...

I need to play with you in-game some time (serious offer)

[RuleofThree]

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed. People expect perfection from day 1. Players are human, they will make mistakes. Do you see pro athletes perform perfectly 100% of the time? No. Why is there an expectation in this game that people never make mistakes?

This. I agree with this.

Rare are the people that actually take time out of their progression to help someone else. A few people have already insinuated it already. If you aren't joining a practice party and are not on their level already, you will get kicked...from a practice party. The disgusting thing about all this is that everything that is being said is all subjective. You can say 'You have got to know how to play your job, if you want to join this party.' But what entails knowing your job? To some people here, it's being able to do rotations efficiency and keep it up while doing mechanics. To other's is a flat number. 4,000dps, 5,000, maybe more.

I agree with what most people are insinuating here: If you take a person in to Shinryu Ex, and they are consistantly failing at a mechanic - be it falling from tsunami, or placing tail at wrong tile, or not handling earth shaker, then yea...it's probably time for them to move on. the problem is, what is 'consistantly?' for me? Any more than 5 in a row, and even I - as far from 'elitest' as you can get - am taking objection. But I've seen, been in, and have even been subject to, parties that will kick you the moment you mess up on anything. It could have been a successful clear, and that person will get kicked anyway, because of one failure. Now...to each their own, everyone has their own play style...

...but damn...that's harsh....

That being said, it isn't like there isn't two sides to this story. There are the hardcore, expect the best elitists, as they are in any game; but don't make it sound like there aren't the 'please carry me' casuals out there as well, those that not only do bad at their job, but do so deliberately and use it as an excuse to try to get past content. The problem is that we are so quick to label people this. I, for example, know just enough on other jobs other than White mage to pass. I can tank and dps dungeons, but would never try to enter them in to current extremes and savages, cause I can't hold a candle. Yet when I do play these jobs on a 'casual' level in dungeons, because I'm not doing what they consider A list work on that job..people assume that I am bad, no matter what. Likewise, if a person sees a player in full current savage gear, they immediately think elitist and treat them as such.

It's not right either way. The point to take away from all this is: No matter what you do, you're wrong. People will hate you regardless. Either you are a casual scrub that doesn't deserve to do extreme or savage content, because you are just a cancerous burden that weighs the raiding population down, or you are an elitist that takes the job to seriously, and circle shirks it when he pulls up his parser to see he is top dps. There is no in between.

[Vidu]

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community. I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

You need to understand that while most content does cater to the more casual gamer and can be completed, even if everyone involved plays at subpar levels, there is content that cant.
Content that is supposed to be a challenge - not everyone enjoy that and thats fine. Thats why we get two versions of this content: a normal version, that includes the story, and an extreme or savage version, that includes the challenge.
Now, a challenge is naturally something you need to be prepared for - for example by being able to play the job you picked at an appropriate level for your level (in this case 70).
If you dont, you have no buisness being in that content - ask yourself: If everyone would be playing at your skill-level, would you be able to clear the content?
If the answer is "no", then you need to improve before you try again - just how it is in any solo-game or probabyl sports irl.

I found the community in general to be pretty nice and helpful, but think about what you're asking here: You are asking 7 other people, who did their homework, learned their jobs, got their gear... to spend more of their freetime on that encounter, just so you can clear it to without having to bother with your own homework.
Or well, you're not asking for this, because you made the sensible choice for yourself not to take on that challenge - which is perfectly fine and okay! If you dont enjoy playing your class to its full potential and dont want to challenge yourself, that is totally okay - in all the content where it doesnt terribly matter in. In all the content that is designed for the more "casual" player - dungeons, NM versions of raids and trials, 24 man raids... but the minute you step into the little content we have in which your performance does matter - Ex-primals, Savage and Ultimate-raids - you better bring that performance or gtfo. Not because the community is made up of evil elitist, but because the people who want to take on those challenges would like to do so with the chance of clearing the content - and if you cant contribute to that, what are you doing there?

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed. People expect perfection from day 1. Players are human, they will make mistakes. Do you see pro athletes perform perfectly 100% of the time? No. Why is there an expectation in this game that people never make mistakes?

There is a place to learn certain things - as in: an Ex-primal is not the place to learn your rotation, for example. You can do that on a dummy.
And in general people arent kicked over one mistake, specially if they show remorse and express that they know what they did wrong and have every intend of fixing it.

Again: The waste majority isnt expecting perfection - they might very well expect certain things stated in a PF-description. If that says "practise colour-phase" for Suzaku that expectation is clearly that you know how to handle the mechanics leading up to that - if you make an honest mistake there (like confusing clockwise and anti-clockwise), but apologise for it, I doubt anyone will mind - specially if you show afterwards that you know how that mechanic works. But if you are completly clueless and keep messing up, you just dont belong in a party that wants to practise a later phase when you clearly dont have the first one down.

You are expecting 7 strangers to just drop their own goal to help you with yours?

Personally, I dont expect people not to make mistakes - I expect them to not always repeat the same mistake. If someone missplaces their meteor in Tsukuyomi once - no big deal, it happens, we go over that quick ("Please make sure you put the meteor in the right spot"). If that same person missplaces their meteor again, they get asked to pay more attention. And if they repeat that mistake, there needs to be talk about a replacement.
Its not asking for perfection - its asking for actual learning from your mistakes to not repeat them all the time.
And its not asking for anything unreasonable if you expect people to know how to play their class at level 70 - and not to practise that in an Ex-primal run.

An athelete might not be perfect 100% of the time, but if he continues to fail, do you think his sponsor or trainer or team will keep him on?
To use your analogy: I havent played football in... probably 15 years and when I played, I played very, very poorly with no will to improve (dont worry, I eventually stopped alltogether and let the other kids on the playground have the ball). If I were to go to my national football-team and demand to play the next season - do you think they should take me on?
No, of course not - they're looking for people playing at their level. And those people can make the occassional mistake, of course! But if someone would constantly pass the ball to the other team - "uups, didnt notice, hehe, just a little mistake!" - or score more own goals than goals for their actual team - do you think they would and should keep that person on?

...why do people hold this believe that asking for a certain level of skill in content thats meant as a challenge is somehow horrible?

[RuleofThree]

bloop

They were asking if pro athletes perform 100%, every time all the time, when playing with pros. Not your example of if a guy that played football in high school walked up and demanded to play with Man United. You are comparing apples (guy who played football in highschool) to oranges (pro players). Where as they are comparing oranges that are having a 'bad day' in performance, to other pros.

In your case, of course you shouldn't expect someone who doesn't know what they are doing to be let in with people who run that content day after day, blindfold. But kicking someone cause they failed something more than once or twice is a bit much as well.

[RiyahArp]

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work. We've had three years of it, and the NA playerbase simply does not participate or clear it in large numbers. The idea of hard 8 man content simply is not viable in MMOs I feel, not in the way we have now where it's all or nothing, and 8 people need to do a single dance "solution" to proceed. The problem is people keep blaming the player rather than discussing whether or not the actual design is the issue or not. You can't rely on random people to execute dance steps of that precision together while doing their rotation to beat enrage and having such a small margin of error. It's reflected in the interest for this content and the number of player clears over time.

At this point, there needs to be at least some discussion about whether or not this is viable. I mean, savage has only gotten more accessible over time, and really can't get much harder without alienating even more people who are not expecting carries. This is on top of the rotational difficulty being nerfed heavily on most jobs. If they game gets more complex rotationally again, we could be back to midas and the same problems.

[Dualgunner]

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work.

Okay. Keep being blunt. Why doesn't it work?

[Dualgunner]

Full admission I got baited there. I wasn't expecting the stealth edit, but I do thank you for going in depth as to why you feel Savage doesn't work.

It's been going for closer to five years, actually. Just because it wasn't called Savage, coils were on that level of difficulty, with Savage Coil being closer to Ultimate. You would think that if the content conceptually didn't work though, then the entire endgame wouldn't be modelled around it for five years straight. Although I guess this is FFXIV where nothing ever changes ever.

[RiyahArp]

It's been going for closer to five years, actually. Just because it wasn't called Savage, coils were on that level of difficulty, with Savage Coil being closer to Ultimate.

I sort of wonder if we were there, how many people actually did them too. At least there has to be some discussion about it now. I can see a class being so hard that most students fail it or don't enroll. But if it's like this after years, with efforts to make it easier, idk if we can keep blaming the students, if you get my drift. I don't know if MMOs can be that hard and work; most i have done made the hard aspect time, not skill required, with not so much all or nothing in terms of rewards.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work. We've had three years of it, and the NA playerbase simply does not participate or clear it in large numbers. The idea of hard 8 man content simply is not viable in MMOs I feel, not in the way we have now where it's all or nothing, and 8 people need to do a single dance "solution" to proceed. The problem is people keep blaming the player rather than discussing whether or not the actual design is the issue or not. You can't rely on random people to execute dance steps of that precision together while doing their rotation to beat enrage and having such a small margin of error. It's reflected in the interest for this content and the number of player clears over time.

At this point, there needs to be at least some discussion about whether or not this is viable. I mean, savage has only gotten more accessible over time, and really can't get much harder without alienating even more people who are not expecting carries. This is on top of the rotational difficulty being nerfed heavily on most jobs. If they game gets more complex rotationally again, we could be back to midas and the same problems.

You're assuming the majority of the playerbase has the minimum skill level to delve into Savage. Given the level of skill you get on DF/Ex primals regularly, it's not that people aren't interested in Savage itself. They just aren't interested in having a level of skill that allows them to go into Savage.