About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

[Iscah]

Like Nidhogg. Oh boy. I absolutely hated that guy. Frankly I hated the whole dragonsong war. The leveling story was better in Heavenward, but I much prefer the SB patch stories.

Are you meaning Nidhogg was an "evil for the sake of being evil" villain? Because he wasn't. It was made very clear that everything he does is intended as vengeance upon Ratatoskr's murderers. You can debate whether it's appropriate vengeance, but not that he has a motive.

[Cilia]

Also I'm glad we moved back to Solus. I got tired just by reading the debate on Garlean morality and Regula. It's like arguing with Potterheads about Draco Malfoy. If the best thing that can be said of you is that sometimes you help the good guys in your quest to conquer continents and cause mass genocide....you are not a good person. End of story.

I agree on principle, but now that I'm not falling asleep at my keyboard, I'd ask to be permitted one last question.

(Also... are you downplaying the positive elements and nuances of Garlemald? For shame! /sarcasm)

[I]f a [Garlean] soldier is convinced that the only way to stop the barbarian hordes from invading is to subjugate and civilize them, their aggression becomes a defensive, protective action.

Consider this: Neither Dalmasca, nor Doma, nor the Eorzean city-states are or were uncivilized barbarians in need of subjugation or civilization (they all have histories dating back centuries). Nor do they have a known history of conflict with the Garlean Republic of yesteryear. Nor did any summon eikons before the Empire's rise to power (prior to Silvertear there are no recorded summons in the Sixth Astral Era at all).

Given these truths, even considering the Garleans' history of being forced to inhospitable territory due to a natural disadvantage, can the Empire's attacks on other sovereign nations be construed as "good," "defensive," or "protective" in any meaningful way?

[Theodric]

It's fascinating how those who claim to loathe specific debates seek to start them at every possible turn.

[LineageRazor]

Consider this: Neither Dalmasca, nor Doma, nor the Eorzean city-states are or were uncivilized barbarians in need of subjugation or civilization (they all have histories dating back centuries). Nor do they have a known history of conflict with the Garlean Republic of yesteryear. Nor did any summon eikons before the Empire's rise to power (prior to Silvertear there are no recorded summons in the Sixth Astral Era at all).

Given these truths, even considering the Garleans' history of being forced to inhospitable territory due to a natural disadvantage, can the Empire's attacks on other sovereign nations be construed as "good," "defensive," or "protective" in any meaningful way?

Ah, but do the rank-and-file know these facts? Likely not. They may know a fair bit about their immediate neighbors (who forced them into exile long ago), but what little they know about the nations beyond is likely provided or strongly influenced by the propaganda they are fed. The billboards and recruitment posters resonate with fear-mongering regarding the Primal Menace, but none of them mention that the Primal Menace didn't really start until Garlemand began its conquest (not even in small print!)

The nations Garlemand conquer and invade may have long, storied histories, but these things are not emphasized in the history books Solus and his regime approved - and if they're mentioned at all, my how these nations have fallen from their days of glory, to become the cesspools of corruption and barbarity they are today!

Even if they had, though, consider the Ala Mhigans under Garlean occupation. Folks in Ala Ghiri assumed the incoming Allied forces would unceremoniously execute any Garlean prisoners of war - and these were Ala Mhigans, people with a relatively recent history of conflict with Gridania who would have a pretty good idea of how they treat their PoWs. Even then, the propaganda was strong enough to convince them that Baut's life was in danger. It's not hard to imagine that Garleans do not recieve news of charming Starlight festivals, or what not, but instead get an unending barrage of tales of rampages by the likes of Ifrit and Leviathan and, oh lord, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! Propaganda can be a powerful thing, and can be used to prompt otherwise good individuals into doing some pretty terrible things.

I'd imagine that Garleans are pretty cruel to their PoWs - and why wouldn't they be? It's justice, for the torture and slaughter of good Garlean men and women unlucky enough to fall into the hands of those Eorzean barbarians!

[Iscah]

I'd imagine that Garleans are pretty cruel to their PoWs - and why wouldn't they be? It's justice, for the torture and slaughter of good Garlean men and women unlucky enough to fall into the hands of those Eorzean barbarians!

Indeed, and guarantees those soldiers will fight boldly to the last rather than be captured by such people, and would never dream of begging for mercy....




...gods be good. All those random Garlean soldiers we've had to kill in the course of the storyline. D:

[Theodric]

Not all of the reports regarding brutality will be false, either. When Hien ordered Doma Castle to be flooded it goes without saying that a number of Garlean soldiers - and non-combatants - were drowned and/or crushed by debris. I'd say that counts as a cruel and unusual death. I'd consider it to the equivalent of a chemical weapon - because the cause of death, much like poison, is prolonged and traumatic.

Many would not be lucky enough to have a quick death. They'd panic and struggle to rise to the surface if caught in the water only to be weighed down by clothing/armour. Perhaps they'd be caught on debris and unable to emerge for air. In the case of being crushed? Consider that only parts of them could be trapped beneath stone and dirt. Limbs could be rendered useless or severed through blunt trauma, disallowing escape. Yet something tells me that the Eorzean Alliance or the newly forged Eastern Alliance isn't likely to reflect upon their own actions despite their haste to condemn the likes of Fordola for acts of brutality. It is my hope that the writers are bold enough to force some reflection upon the leaders of both sides of the conflict. That, more than anything, was one of the things that served to make FFXII so memorable.

It's exactly why a war with Garlemald is to be avoided at all costs - it'll only result in suffering for all involved and both sides resorting to increasingly desperate measures...which is exactly what the Ascians have been shown to desire.

[Cilia]

Ah, but do the rank-and-file know these facts? Likely not. They may know a fair bit about their immediate neighbors (who forced them into exile long ago), but what little they know about the nations beyond is likely provided or strongly influenced by the propaganda they are fed. The billboards and recruitment posters resonate with fear-mongering regarding the Primal Menace, but none of them mention that the Primal Menace didn't really start until Garlemand began its conquest (not even in small print!)

[...]

I'd imagine that Garleans are pretty cruel to their PoWs - and why wouldn't they be? It's justice, for the torture and slaughter of good Garlean men and women unlucky enough to fall into the hands of those Eorzean barbarians!

In short, it takes lies (both fabrications and by omission) to construe the Empire's actions as "defensive" and/or "protective" in light of the truths behind the nations it attacks? This is what you mean to say, is it not?

[Remedi]

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

[Theodric]

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

Following on from that, it's also worth noting that - to our knowledge - the provinces that have been treated the most harshly are also those that have resisted and attempted uprisings. It'd be nice to get some details as to how, exactly, those uprisings played out as insurgents would presumably resort to violence, perhaps in excess. Speaking to the NPC's hanging around the Prima Vista reveals that Livia sas Junius responded with force in Dalmasca as a consequence of Garlean settlers - aka civilians - being slain by Dalmascan insurgents.

[ObsidianFire]

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

This is very, very hard to justify when the oppresion the Garleans went through in Othard happened well over 800 years ago. And just about all the infornation we have on what the Garleans were doing in the past 800 years seems to paint them as having terretorial disputes that are as run-of-the-mill as the terretorial disputes going on in Eorzea at the time. Until someone we now know to be an Ascian made a power grab...

Lore Book 2 really can not come soon enough...