How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Last I checked, boogeymen aren't real. However, players kicking others over numbers is history - it happened - it's what made SE clarify that third party programs also included parsers.

I didn't put words in your mouth, nor do I care to address a strawman argument.

And neither is wide-spread kicking. You're omitting part of my argument to suit your own. I never said people aren't kick. In fact, the very part of my post you quoted specifically highlighted it doesn't happen with any sort of regularity. Therefore, the idea parsers would abruptly cause widespread toxicity simply doesn't add up. They're already prevalent, and people aren't being kicked left and right. Hence why it doesn't exist.

You did precisely that. Nowhere in my initial post did I claim people wouldn't judge others nor did I insinuate otherwise. I find rather ironic you accuse me of strawmanning, when you did so yourself.

You made a statement without fact. You said people will be jerks and parsing won't impact that. I want to know how you know this and what did you do to come to this conclusion.

For reasons stated above. It's common knowledge if you set foot in either EX or Savage, someone in your party will have ACT running. Despite this, people aren't being kicked left and right otherwise we would be seeing threads about it like virtually everything else. We don't. Your entire stance relies on people abruptly turning into assholes because a tool which they already use is allowed to be discussed publicly. Toxic people do not need a parse to be jerks. If someone annoys them, they aren't going to hold back just because they can't reveal what said person's DPS numbers were. Will some people abuse it? Absolutely. Just like the Vote Abandon system hence my previous example—the one who claimed a strawman. Generalizing the entire playerbase based on the action of a few... well, that's a silly position to take.

If you want to get technical, neither of us have any definitive answer one way or another. You cannot claim people will abruptly treat each other worse and the game as a whole will suffer if ACT were discussed openly.

the problem would be the one two punch of parsers and making casual content harder, which a lot of pro-parser people lump together. Casual content being trivial is what keeps parsers from having an impact outside of hard raids. Keep in mind too, if they make parsers legal, eventually they will design content based on people having them, i.e. much more frequent dps checks.

Alphascape is harder. You think anyone cares about parsing it? Harder casual content doesn't mean EX or Savage difficulty. How many times do we have to reiterate this? The Vault wasn't hard, but it also wasn't a dungeon I basically fell asleep through. Meanwhile, Swallow's Compass is so laughably easy I literally don't need a healer.

[JunseiKei]

So you should also advocate against the introduction of a forum or better to its closing and for the removing of chat and emotes because they are the main tools for harrassment.

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.

~snip~

Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

To answer the thread's title: the players are what would make the parser toxic, but inherently, it would not be.

[Ilan]

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.



Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

A jerk will always be a jerk no matter if he has a tool like the parser or not. This is just an old and useless argument.

[Dualgunner]

Forums are actively enforced by moderators hired by SE. Chat is fixed with minimizing the chat window or blocking someone. Emotes simply need you to move away. Was this supposed to be clever? :thinking: I found it silly.



Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

And parsers, along with the chat log, would be under Square's regulation, and the introduction of a parser would not make harassment, with or without a parser, legal.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Parsers will not magically make them jerks. It will give them a system to utilize to be jerks. There are no metrics for people getting kicked for low DPS (which is what I had been asking of your quote). All of this is subjective views. So arguing about the 'about of this', or 'decrease of this', or 'increase of this' is silly. I'm not trying to convince you of my position - I don't care what you think - my point is YoshiP has vehemently has said no multiple times, so requesting it is a waste of time. Arguing over the details that are his decision is also a waste of time. You're beating a dead horse.

In essence, you are blaming the tool. Refer back to my earlier example. It's a silly argument because practically anything can be abused. Regardless, it will be a horse beaten for years as people will continuously ask, especially when the devs do convoluted workarounds that don't accomplish anything like SSS and the job gauges. And to be fair, Yoshida has said a lot of things and gone back on his word. It may well be a waste of time, but why post in a thread whose subject you deem a "waste of time"?

And as already stated. A jerk will always be a jerk. They don't care about using a parse to tell you to "uninstall because you're shit." They were always going to say that because they're a jerk who doesn't care.

[Penthea]

And as already stated. A jerk will always be a jerk. They don't care about using a parse to tell you to "uninstall because you're shit." They were always going to say that because they're a jerk who doesn't care.

While this is true there is something to be said about giving people less tools to be jerks. We have all played with a much larger amount of jerks than we realise because these people had no parser to use as a platform to be awful people.

As I said before in this thread I played WoW before parsers were commonly used and the community changed for the worse when they became commonplace...or rather, we saw the community for what it actually was to be more precise. When jerks have no ammunition they're just going to play the content like everyone else. When they do have ammo, their true colours come out. I see absolutely no reason why it would be any different in XIV. A parser would most definitely make jerks feel they are justified to be more openly hostile. You only need to use PF for ex and savage to see this behaviour already.

Again not disputing that parsers are useful tools, because they are. The unfortunate truth is they're often used as an excuse to be horrible to people.

[Lunalepsy]

It sounds people want to turn the game into a huge HR project.

[AxlStream]

It sounds people want to turn the game into a huge HR project.

Ha! I never read that comparison made before but it fits so damn well! The poor and useless employees (players) are overprotected compared to the ones actually keeping the company afloat.


Also as far as jerks are concerned. I consider myself one. The only thing holding me back from calling someone out on any mechanical mistake is the fact I could get instantly reported for it. I don't even say stuff like "Hey Ninja, can you delay trick attack to the 5th GCD? Using it on 1st doesn't get the maximum out of it." will get me chastised by the puritans of "playstyle". We just talk smack on discord with our likeminded friends.

[Aerlana]

particularly because it creates a strict, set guideline on what the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ way to do things are.

In fact, without official parser, there is already the "right/wrong" way to do (right = the one that allow the team to do the most damages.)
and this exists also WITHOUT any parser.

The parser is just a tool to see how much damages (hors heals). Like you can use some tools to know how much the table is wide, the temperature outside or your own weight.


Parser are already in use, parser are already uploaded on a site, where some peoples' damages are already without they know it, even if here they say "parser is baaaad". This tool that only displays DPS information are already in use.
Speaking about toxicity it could generates, or all risks due to parser is just forgetting there is already parser, and they are already used a lot...


For "see wow"
Yes, WoW get some stupid ilvl requirement for some content... FFXIV also
Yes, WoW get some many selfish people... FFXIV also
Yes, WoW get some toxic players venerating god damagemeter (or d***meter also) and... nearly the same in FFXIV without any official.

But, first wow didnt see ilvl (needed informant) and it become crazy with "gearscore addon" (shitty one) and then... people did regulate a little. It is not a "perfectly happy situation" now but far more better than back in WOTLK and this addon.
Selfish people are due that both game can be played solo for most part. And it makes people doing even more thing like asking stupidly high ilvl or being damagemeter-nazi.
God damage meter? Same, first people asked so high sometime, and now, even after 3-4 wipe in LFR people are not kicked due to low damages, or the abyssal damages. But when you see fight like faust (A1S) a fight which only difficulty was the DPS needed. And many party didnt even go through it... What is the solution except seeing who doesnt get enough damages? Same when you hit enrage at 20% life left on boss, but the party did manage perfectly all mechanics...

Toxicity seems most of time here, on WoW forum and other places a word used to complain you were kick and dont want to evolve and see yourself what you maybe did wrong... Easier to complain that people are toxic around you i think.

[thegreatonemal]

EDIT:

Therein lies the principle issue with relying on Stone Sky Sea as a stand-in for a parser, or even as a gatekeeper. Not every fight will let you belt off your optimal rotation; whether it's due to boss jumping, aoes pulling you out of melee range, repeated aoe dropping giving no time for even a slidecast, or many many other things, a static dummy will not be good preparation for that.

A parser helps in the making of decisions regarding rotation optimization. What gives me the bigger damage output in the end; using embolden on cooldown and executing a double emboldened finisher on the Level Checker in O11S? Or holding it and executing it after Level Checker, since my group can kill Level Checker in either case and using a burst window on the boss is a better use of the group's time?

Will either of those things lead to A: A much quicker kill time. B: A clear instead of an enrage wipe.

The answer to both of those is it wont. Sure will those things lead to a slightly better personal 4 digit number at the end of the fight? Sure, but it doesn't do A or B so its pointless and no need to waste official resource on so you can do something that doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

I don't have experience with with o3s just yet but assuming what you say is true then that means there are 2 fights in all of stormblood that require a change to the opener which is the new trail and this fight every other fight in this expansion and pretty much all of them from the last you can just use the muscle memory gained from hitting that dummy