How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[SenorPatty]

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves. I hope SE don't catch on to the "there will always be jerks" justification that allows people to shrug dismissively at the bad side effects of something, because then the game would be headed down a dark path.

But many have have faced those facts? But we also acknowledged that people will use anything to fuel toxicity. We've also acknlowledge that people view performance information as toxic. We've also acknowledged that people have issues with people who don't want to waste their time figuring out who sneaked and lied their way into their PF party when the demands on it were clear so parser helps with that. We've also acknowledged that despite showcasing that exclusion can also mean other people who don't want to be parsed can simply play with other like minded players, that's apparently toxic as well. We've acknowledged that there can be a numerical increase in parser related toxicity if ps4 users finally get access to one. We've also acknlowledged the numerical increase in toxicity that could happen coming from ps4 users who may cry foul against ps4 parser users.

So in a very ironic twist, you are right. There would be more toxicity but now I'm very convinced that the increased frequency isn't gonna come from the community that just likes to improve and compete with one another with parsers.

[NanaWiloh]

I would be ok with a personal parser one with no option too post numbers publicly. With a strict rule from SE that anyone caught pressuring others into coughing up parser numbers will suffer a 72 ban.

[KaivaC]

But clearly looking at the big picture is discouraged so...yea. I'm done. Have fun with this endless argument which has turned into little other than an echo chamber. I look forward to the many clones of this thread in the future. Probably some by Kaiva again as he seems to enjoy bringing up divisive issues.

Well...since I was mentioned and I actually caught it, I feel obligated to now jump in.

I'm not sure how it's an echo chamber when most of the arguments presented by those who hold an anti-parser stance were countered. There are a lot of people who would like to see something like this, and again, if it's a purely personal parser, I fail to see how it leads to an increase in toxicity as long as it remains personal. Like, seriously, nobody but the player running it will ever see it...unless they do something like share it with other players. The argument that I've seen brought up here and there about others saying post screens doesn't make the current ToS go away - if someone is asking for a screen of your personal parser, it's simple enough to just report them. The funny thing is that, I made a strong mention of personal parsers for PS4 users - but the thread itself has gone in the direction of parsing in general becoming official. It's not an automatic echo chamber just because multiple people disagree with you over several pages. It's just more people that may disagree with your reasoning.

[Jijifli]

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves.

This exact push away at something just because someone can be toxic with it is why Feat chat isn't a thing.

People said mean things in feast chat, so Square literally turned off your ability to type words and only let you say premade messages set to a macro.

Please, do not make that repeat. Everything can be used to be "toxic" to someone. I can emote in a way to harass a player in multiple ways. I can use the chat to tell you death threats. I can name my retainer something just to spite you.

Do you want emotes removed? Chat? Retainers? THAT'S how it sounds when people say, "Oh someone can be mean with this feature so we shouldn't let anybody use it." Why don't we ban the people that use it to harass people?

Oh wait. They'll lose a sub.

[jameseoakes]

Well...since I was mentioned and I actually caught it, I feel obligated to now jump in.

I'm not sure how it's an echo chamber when most of the arguments presented by those who hold an anti-parser stance were countered. The funny thing is that, I made a strong mention of personal parsers for PS4 users - but the thread itself has gone in the direction of parsing in general becoming official. It's not an automatic echo chamber just because multiple people disagree with you over several pages. It's just more people that may disagree with your reasoning.

I'm not sure I'd say either sides points got countered. Personal Parses seemed to get a decent enough reception at the start of the thread, it was people who wanted to see other people numbers who where most against them.

[tymora]

Maybe a personal parser that only looks at your own damage output and compare it to the overall range for your job.
E.g. For XX raid, min is 3000, max is 6000, median is 5000. Assign a rating of A, B, C...etc based on output.

Only viewable by youself.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

This exact push away at something just because someone can be toxic with it is why Feat chat isn't a thing.

People said mean things in feast chat, so Square literally turned off your ability to type words and only let you say premade messages set to a macro.

Please, do not make that repeat. Everything can be used to be "toxic" to someone. I can emote in a way to harass a player in multiple ways. I can use the chat to tell you death threats. I can name my retainer something just to spite you.

Do you want emotes removed? Chat? Retainers? THAT'S how it sounds when people say, "Oh someone can be mean with this feature so we shouldn't let anybody use it." Why don't we ban the people that use it to harass people?

Oh wait. They'll lose a sub.

Good Job!
Good Job!
Good Job!
Good Job!
Good Job!

Didn't stop toxicity, it just changed what tools were available.
σ(^_^; )

[Bourne_Endeavor]

But clearly looking at the big picture is discouraged so...yea. I'm done. Have fun with this endless argument which has turned into little other than an echo chamber. I look forward to the many clones of this thread in the future. Probably some by Kaiva again as he seems to enjoy bringing up divisive issues.

How about knocking off the hubris? Because you claim it "the big picture" doesn't make it so. Your entire stance has essentially been to shield people from any potential harassment even if it means tossing aside beneficial tools because heaven forbid someone's feelings get hurt. The bigger picture is recognizing these same people can report harassment, thus mitigating the negative aspect of parses should it arise. Which is another factor. You have nothing except anecdotal evidence yet insist parses will cause a significant increase in toxicity. And you've continuously ignored examples where this logic is applied to other scenarios and makes little to no sense, i.e, banning chat or tells would be silly despite people being able to abuse it.

The only echo chamber is the one you're trying to create.

[KaivaC]

I'm not sure I'd say either sides points got countered. Personal Parses seemed to get a decent enough reception at the start of the thread, it was people who wanted to see other people numbers who where most against them.

Personally I don't believe se will ever allow our endotse public parsers. The current status quo is okay for the time being, but PS4 users are screwed unless they know people on PC who can run a log for them. Some people may not agree, but I don't feel a personal parser for consoles would be nearly as bad as some said. If it's personal, there's no reason for others to see it. The tool for that mind of information already exists.

[valho]

SE should make SSS into something like this https://youtu.be/ZXYOVLT1VSs?t=66
This is from a F2P game that I use to play, it's a training room that teaches you the basic of your skills, dodging, etc. Beside that you also have bosses for all dungeons and raid, except the latest raid tier that you can use to practice with. Of course you won't die in there even if you get hit, but it's still a good way to learn to dodge aoe and stuff. At the end of the fight you get a summary of the damage you done, damage from each skill, number of cast etc. If SE can take this and improve upon it for SSS it will be more helpful than hitting a dummy and at the end only tells you that you pass. No other information whatsoever.