How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Aerlana]

*snip*

the addon for eye of anzu was a way to laugh other people. But yes, some couldnt even kill anzu without it. Proof some are bad.
Also, numerous people were unable clearly to kill titan hard/extrem if someone wasnt saying each skill titan will use, one after other...


Also for this i dont want to say "better or worst". And other thing : When we say parsers will improve playstyle. it will do it for those who WANTS improve themselves. Large part of people, really large part doesnt want to always improve themselves (or not improve enough to get the need to some details informations), and so, you can give them as much tool as you want, they wont improve.
But, in most content, we dont care. I really dont care that my daily dongeon does 35 or 40 minutes instead of 30 (and to be honest, the raging one about this are ot only the top level players ... )
When i did the raid with "eye of anzu" i didnt have the addon, most had, and did my work well without, and they did with. but when i watched their "armory" page (like lodestone for characters) i saw that they were clearly not the kind of player wanting to improve. more the kind to click "easy" on the begining of a new game. their choice... Also the kind of people in WoW that come on forum saying "game is too easy" and didnt even go on heroic mode (and evne less mythic where the real difficulty is)

and yes, difficulty of WoW did improve... iskar you point, even with all in the raid having this addon stayed harder than nefarian. easily was as hard as twins emperor or C'thun... Iskar was just a boss in the 2nd part of the raid. when you killed him and 4 other, it opened this access to mannoroth and then, finally the last boss. C'thun, or Nefarian were the hardest boss in their own raid...

But you speak about the wow comunity as a whole, when we speak about parsers only considering "people wanting to improve" (because, watching parser or any other hint, they consider themselves quite bad, and should improve). WoW comunity it is also some people whining because some dongeons are not in the Duty Finder, SO have to get a team in the party finder, with a slitly harder dongeon to do. And consider the people they will party with as toxic brainless parser addict. FFXIV comunity like WoW comunity is not "only one kind of people" some dont care about PvE content, doing only old one to get skins, and then, go roleplay. other dont do anything else than PvP. some tryhard the most difficult content (savage/ultimate/mythic raid / M+ dongeon) And some (like me) stays on "casual" content (heroic raid / Xtrem primals / first/second savage bosses). The "only roleplay" dont care his DPS. the PvP guy will not only think DPS, but also to survive, more crowdcontroll etc etc. When we speak about improvement due to parser it is, at least people like me, wanting to perform a little in content.


Parser improve the playstyle of the people wanting to clearly improve it. The others, if they dont want, no tool, no tutorial, no guide can make them improve.

You want to compare wow to FF. lets focus on the same kind of people on both game. (And when i do it, i am clearly unable to give an answer, the game get so much difference to being able to compare players' level)

[Penthea]

the addon for eye of anzu was a way to laugh other people. But yes, some couldnt even kill anzu without it. Proof some are bad.
Also, numerous people were unable clearly to kill titan hard/extrem if someone wasnt saying each skill titan will use, one after other...

Oh trust me I know, I was raiding with a guild that at the time had some individuals that couldn't handle some mechanics no matter how much handholding add-ons gave them. It was depressingly hilarious to watch.

Also for this i dont want to say "better or worst". And other thing : When we say parsers will improve playstyle. it will do it for those who WANTS improve themselves. Large part of people, really large part doesnt want to always improve themselves (or not improve enough to get the need to some details informations), and so, you can give them as much tool as you want, they wont improve.

I completely agree. However in WoW I saw people find ways around it. Some played the FOTM class/spec so that they looked decent even if they were not and changed class/spec as soon as the balance reshuffled, they used add-ons that assisted them with their rotations, they would intentionally dps the wrong targets if it them made them look better on the meters and often completely refused to use any utility no matter how helpful it might be because having someone else do so would make their dps go down and they would continue to look okay.

I know that some of these are not applicable to FFXIV given SE's stance on add-ons making them awkward to use and how their use is completely absent for PS4 players. But my point is while parsers encourage people to improve their dps, that doesn't mean everyone is going to actually legitimately improve it.

I guarantee if parsers come to FFXIV issues with people ignoring certain targets will become more common. Some classes are better at aoe than others, some can switch target with less dps loss, some classes don't rely on dots for a huge chunk of their damage so they don't have to worry about things dying to soon making them look bad. All this would become very apparent with an official parser and many people will react to this by gaming the game by choosing what they dps based on the dps they would achieve and not based on doing the encounter efficiently or properly. And then the problem with that is many people only glance at the parser and judge an entire situation based on dps results. Their problem player might be their top dps but they might think about kicking someone else. A more knowledgeable or sensible player would dig more and find the truth but everyone knows that common sense is often a super power in mmos.

Sorry but I don't see how FFXIV would be any different in this manner. There is literally nothing about the community in its current state to suggest that the above would never happen.

But, in most content, we dont care. I really dont care that my daily dongeon does 35 or 40 minutes instead of 30 (and to be honest, the raging one about this are ot only the top level players ... )

You mean people like you don't care. I have seen parser abuse in lvl 30 dungeons in WoW. Some people don't understand that classes aren't designed to be balanced while lvling. And some just want to be jerks.

Also the kind of people in WoW that come on forum saying "game is too easy" and didnt even go on heroic mode (and evne less mythic where the real difficulty is)

This isn't unique to WoW, I have seen this in FFXIV too. It happens more in WoW because a massive amount of the lvling content in that game is a freaking joke, and also (dunno about now) back when I played ilvl sync was not a thing so max lvl dungeons that may have been challenging for the intended ilvl were insultingly easy for people in up to date gear.

and yes, difficulty of WoW did improve... iskar you point, even with all in the raid having this addon stayed harder than nefarian. easily was as hard as twins emperor or C'thun... Iskar was just a boss in the 2nd part of the raid. when you killed him and 4 other, it opened this access to mannoroth and then, finally the last boss. C'thun, or Nefarian were the hardest boss in their own raid...

My point is that Blizzard saying their players got better at the game is a flawed statement because of the tremendous amount of add-ons that you can get that can help you. Some help with your rotation, some literally shout at you if you stand in fire allowing you to pay less attention to the arena, some are designed to trivialise boss mechanics, the list goes on.

But you speak about the wow comunity as a whole, when we speak about parsers only considering "people wanting to improve"

I'm sorry but you should not limit yourself to thinking of one corner of the bigger picture. Parsers will affect the community as a whole. It is very short-sighted to only think of those who would use it for self improvement.

You want to compare wow to FF. lets focus on the same kind of people on both game. (And when i do it, i am clearly unable to give an answer, the game get so much difference to being able to compare players' level) (because, watching parser or any other hint, they consider themselves quite bad, and should improve). WoW comunity it is also some people whining because some dongeons are not in the Duty Finder, SO have to get a team in the party finder, with a slitly harder dongeon to do. And consider the people they will party with as toxic brainless parser addict. FFXIV comunity like WoW comunity is not "only one kind of people" some dont care about PvE content, doing only old one to get skins, and then, go roleplay. other dont do anything else than PvP. some tryhard the most difficult content (savage/ultimate/mythic raid / M+ dongeon) And some (like me) stays on "casual" content (heroic raid / Xtrem primals / first/second savage bosses). The "only roleplay" dont care his DPS. the PvP guy will not only think DPS, but also to survive, more crowdcontroll etc etc. When we speak about improvement due to parser it is, at least people like me, wanting to perform a little in content.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this paragraph. It appears that you think the WoW and FFXIV have a lot more in common than some people realise.

You want to compare wow to FF. lets focus on the same kind of people on both game. (And when i do it, i am clearly unable to give an answer, the game get so much difference to being able to compare players' level)

It would be more accurate to say that WoW is a warning sign for how parsers can negatively affect a game. Just because a tool is useful doesn't mean it can't or won't be abused.

I'm not anti-parser. I'm anti-idiot and anti-jerk.

I don't fancy the idea of handing parsers to idiots and jerks because I have seen what they do when they have them. They don't only bicker among themselves. They bring everyone down with them whether it's inciting needless arguments, falsely accusing people of poor performance, intentionally dps the wrong targets or waste people's time by halting progression with their antics. It is not coddling to want to avoid people who don't know how to or don't want to use a tool properly. If that is coddling then you may as well say the same for people who want to avoid those who don't know how to or don't want to use their classes properly.

[Aerlana]

*snip*

i wont quote-answer each part. but will be, i think, easy for you to see to what i answer


short version :
Yes wow fight are harder now than before, even with some addon. and the "rotation addon" are used by the people with bad gameplay unable to adapt to eachfight. Also, FF get his own "helping" bots on vocal to do calls during the fight, and before boss mods did exist, there was the raidlead doing the calls...
Parser wont create dumbass people, just make them appear. But there is rule on the game, and most of them will discover what ban is (or rediscover...). Because the "real good" players dont care about parsers before Xtrem primals.
WoW comunity and FF are similar, and more, most of online game get the same kind of toxicity (elohell myth is in my mind toxic people unable to get to gold and prefer to complain about "the others")
Parser can also shows who is really bad, EVEN if the parsers shows he is the best DPS (not enough interrupt, to much damage taken, all damages on boss, etc etc etc)
Not wanting parser because it will make appear toxic guys is not a solution to get rid of them, they are a far more large matter. and will always find a way to being toxic.



Long version with more details and personnal thought :

For the comunity. YES some are dumb, but again, they dont wait parsers to be dumb. AGAIN the abusiv kicking in leveling dongeon (didnt saw any and did lvl from zero 4 classes from the end of WoD to now) are due to dupmb people, those kind of guys who will find an excuse to insult and being dumbass. you cant do anything and protect yourself from them... And giving them or no the tools are not the matter.

For the addons there is rotations? yes the people using it are fast spot because they cant adapt to fights. If you speak about WA, most people uses it to display much more informations.
Bossmods? FF have them, when you go on some teams' vocal you find a bot that does the work... So yes, blizzrad with the easy way of addon have it. And it is really usefull for casual players to do the "normal" raid, or even LFR (... god i hate LFR XD )
But again, I DONT SPEAK ABOUT PEOPLE DOING LOW CONTENT. normal raid, LFR, is like raid 24 or raid8 story mode on FF. who cares about how good you are in such content? There is, in LFR like in raid24 always some AFK people (and in both side they are kick when spot... parsers help to spot them :-° )

And lets return to iskar. he gets much more mechanics and things to do than C'thun, the eye is only one. and getting some vocal call from raid leader or from a bot/addon is the same thing.

Top world of FF and WoW get the same tools to try, on FF they have bots, (or even ACT does this) and on WoW they have weak aura, they have to set to get needed informations.


Yes, WoW and FFXIV get a quite similar comunity... Most of thing i saw on wow, i did find it on FF, and most thing i did see on FF during ARR/HW... i did then find it when back on wow.
And, i continue to do all (except top end) content in WoW, when i go on LFR, we wait 3 or 4 wipe before thinking to kick deadweight, those which DPS are not just "bad" no... those when their DPS is so low that we think they did afk during part of the tries. And also those that cant do mechanics at all... And continue with sometime people that dont even have the level to one shot LFR (and LFR is really REALLY easy)

You speak about the difficulty of leveling content, with the change to the leveling, bosses are not instant kill, so low level dongeons again take a little time to be done. for "heroic dongeons" as it began on WOTLK they are easy, as expert dongeon in FF are. But there is mythic and M+ content (where there is really some competition there). BUT some people run away from those, like they run away from normal raid. doing only DF content (heroic dongeon at best, and LFR)
And... in such kind of content, we dont care about parsing, as said, on LFR, it is when we get 4 wipe and far from killing the boss (4thwipe => 20-25% left... sorry but there is a matter in an more than easy content)

For you wow is proof of all bad things of parser ? Dont need wow for this, FFXIV already show some dumbass. as said, they dont need parser to be. I was more kicked in dongeon during 3 years in FF than in 6 years on WoW with DF (FF, at least 11 time... on wow not even sure i can reach 5 kick...) i was kicked one time on FF just because i did ask the tank to slow down a little, to allow me regen some PM as healer... I didnt rage about "bad comunity" it was a duo of silly brainless dude wanting to do the dongeon in 21minutes and not 21minutes30seconds. (maybe on wow this could exist, but a votekick need 3 people, FF only 2, this helps A LOT about abusiv kick... would be good that on FF need the three people click "yes" to kick on 4-man)

And yes, on wow i had some argue with guys thinking they were god among us. But... i already did see it on FFXIV... while seeing BLM going to ice mode with "ice" (not IceIII, the first spells !) and saying me to "shutting my fucking mouth" because i only was scholar, and had nothing to learn to play BLM from me.

You say you are anti-idiot? I trust you, sincerely. as said i was on the end of the wow beta. i did see a lot of dumb thing. i HATE the "gearscore" addon, full of shit (and fast died) i laugh to some people not even able to do decently their job with the "eye of anzu" addon and whining they cant finish the raid in heroic mode. But you know what? they have to be kicked from the raid. Because even them, thinking they are good enough for the content was deadweight.
you did speak about people doing damages on the wrong target and wasting people time. and... parsers shows it without any way to deny the fact ! (when a guy get 95% damage on boss where he should be at 70% or less on boss... and yes... if he does it another try after it is said to him, he can be first damages of the raid, he will have to say good bye! )

Look back the content the "pro parsers" are speaking. Xtrem primals to do farms (not even simple "kills") and savage. Could speak, on wow side on heroic raid content (and mythic so) or M+ dongeons. but, kicking, and requesting people to master their job in such content is not even "a minimum" it should be a basis rule. You dont master your job? just forget savage. Then the parsers will only shows the guy doesnt master his job. and so... the lesser thing we can ask to do savage content is not there... so yes, kick.

It is coddling to consider we have to take in any party, never kicking people that dont fit a content. Yes.
For this now, on WoW, i dont go mythic raid even if i love raiding. My play time, and my focus on the game make me not fitting this content past the 2-3 first bosses of the raid. When you do to such content, you have to admit people will judge you. And it wont be always "hum ok, not so bad continue"
And parsers is just one way to get numerous proof... and the deadweight finish kicked, as some many toxic people, thinking they are over the crowd, but the parsers show even if they are good in doing damages they are bad in any other way...



To end (fianlly you think... sorry)
I understand the fear about stupid people getting this tool, but honestly, in 15 years, in different MMORPG, from EQ to FFXIV, AION, WoW, Tera, BDO, ragnarok online a little, some long activ time on LoL, OW (and other i did play less) Toxic people managed to be toxic. with or without parser or any tool. Just see the "elohell" shit... "if i am stuck in bronze/silver, it is not i am bad, it is i have always shitty people with me"
Toxic people just want to never admit they are a matter, they are bad, or anything of this kind, they consider they are over the crowd. But sometime, tools allowing them to be some ass are also a good way to get rid of them... it shows where they are bad, (even if, while watching it, they will find 2397643 reasons). And more. in my mind, a toxic guy that shows being toxic with parser is just an unveiled toxic. and maybe finally it is the time to get rid of him.

YES if parser get officially in the game, at first we will see a wave of such kind of people, and we will see it fast, far before the "good" things parsers will be seen. But i trust in the Game Master team to deal with them (because some "lol shitty noob, L2P, or delete account" is for me a temporary ban, and after 4-5 time, permaban.) It will just make them appear, but will NOT create them !

For the toxicity : there is some things, now in the game, where parser wont change anything to the matter, that already creates toxicity (not create the people as said it just shows them) like "mentor" system.
i dont say devs let the toxicity exist and smile, clearly not, but even idea that seems 100% good can make them "live"... and with or without parser there is work to do about it

[Penthea]

Not wanting parser because it will make appear toxic guys is not a solution to get rid of them, they are a far more large matter. and will always find a way to being toxic.

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves. I hope SE don't catch on to the "there will always be jerks" justification that allows people to shrug dismissively at the bad side effects of something, because then the game would be headed down a dark path.

Fortunately for me I won't have to deal with much or any parser toxicity if the game gets an official parser because I raid with people I know and it's rare when we pug, and if we do we hold a great majority in the group. Judging from many of the comments here I should also have the attitude of "but I'd use it properly so let me have it" given I can easily avoid seeing the bad side of it.

But clearly looking at the big picture is discouraged so...yea. I'm done. Have fun with this endless argument which has turned into little other than an echo chamber. I look forward to the many clones of this thread in the future. Probably some by Kaiva again as he seems to enjoy bringing up divisive issues.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves. I hope SE don't catch on to the "there will always be jerks" justification that allows people to shrug dismissively at the bad side effects of something, because then the game would be headed down a dark path.

Fortunately for me I won't have to deal with much or any parser toxicity if the game gets an official parser because I raid with people I know and it's rare when we pug, and if we do we hold a great majority in the group. Judging from many of the comments here I should also have the attitude of "but I'd use it properly so let me have it" given I can easily avoid seeing the bad side of it.

But clearly looking at the big picture is discouraged so...yea. I'm done. Have fun with this endless argument which has turned into little other than an echo chamber. I look forward to the many clones of this thread in the future. Probably some by Kaiva again as he seems to enjoy bringing up divisive issues.

So by your logic, would you also support eliminating chat from the game? I mean, there's people shrugging dismissively at the bad side effects of it. And you can replace chat with any other feature of the game (PF, Roulettes, Cutscenes in MSQ Roulette, etc)

I can assure that if people took that stance ("but it might cause problems by a fraction of the population") regarding anything, we'd still be back in the Stone Age in regards to development.

[jameseoakes]

But clearly looking at the big picture is discouraged so...yea. I'm done. Have fun with this endless argument which has turned into little other than an echo chamber. I look forward to the many clones of this thread in the future.

These threads always are, both sides justify there own biases and just shout at each other and these threads do seem to be getting more and more hostile though (both sides and I'm not innocent on this one) which I don't think is good.

[SenorPatty]

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves. I hope SE don't catch on to the "there will always be jerks" justification that allows people to shrug dismissively at the bad side effects of something, because then the game would be headed down a dark path.

But many have have faced those facts? But we also acknowledged that people will use anything to fuel toxicity. We've also acknlowledge that people view performance information as toxic. We've also acknowledged that people have issues with people who don't want to waste their time figuring out who sneaked and lied their way into their PF party when the demands on it were clear so parser helps with that. We've also acknowledged that despite showcasing that exclusion can also mean other people who don't want to be parsed can simply play with other like minded players, that's apparently toxic as well. We've acknowledged that there can be a numerical increase in parser related toxicity if ps4 users finally get access to one. We've also acknlowledged the numerical increase in toxicity that could happen coming from ps4 users who may cry foul against ps4 parser users.

So in a very ironic twist, you are right. There would be more toxicity but now I'm very convinced that the increased frequency isn't gonna come from the community that just likes to improve and compete with one another with parsers.

[KaivaC]

But clearly looking at the big picture is discouraged so...yea. I'm done. Have fun with this endless argument which has turned into little other than an echo chamber. I look forward to the many clones of this thread in the future. Probably some by Kaiva again as he seems to enjoy bringing up divisive issues.

Well...since I was mentioned and I actually caught it, I feel obligated to now jump in.

I'm not sure how it's an echo chamber when most of the arguments presented by those who hold an anti-parser stance were countered. There are a lot of people who would like to see something like this, and again, if it's a purely personal parser, I fail to see how it leads to an increase in toxicity as long as it remains personal. Like, seriously, nobody but the player running it will ever see it...unless they do something like share it with other players. The argument that I've seen brought up here and there about others saying post screens doesn't make the current ToS go away - if someone is asking for a screen of your personal parser, it's simple enough to just report them. The funny thing is that, I made a strong mention of personal parsers for PS4 users - but the thread itself has gone in the direction of parsing in general becoming official. It's not an automatic echo chamber just because multiple people disagree with you over several pages. It's just more people that may disagree with your reasoning.

[jameseoakes]

Well...since I was mentioned and I actually caught it, I feel obligated to now jump in.

I'm not sure how it's an echo chamber when most of the arguments presented by those who hold an anti-parser stance were countered. The funny thing is that, I made a strong mention of personal parsers for PS4 users - but the thread itself has gone in the direction of parsing in general becoming official. It's not an automatic echo chamber just because multiple people disagree with you over several pages. It's just more people that may disagree with your reasoning.

I'm not sure I'd say either sides points got countered. Personal Parses seemed to get a decent enough reception at the start of the thread, it was people who wanted to see other people numbers who where most against them.

[Jijifli]

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves.

This exact push away at something just because someone can be toxic with it is why Feat chat isn't a thing.

People said mean things in feast chat, so Square literally turned off your ability to type words and only let you say premade messages set to a macro.

Please, do not make that repeat. Everything can be used to be "toxic" to someone. I can emote in a way to harass a player in multiple ways. I can use the chat to tell you death threats. I can name my retainer something just to spite you.

Do you want emotes removed? Chat? Retainers? THAT'S how it sounds when people say, "Oh someone can be mean with this feature so we shouldn't let anybody use it." Why don't we ban the people that use it to harass people?

Oh wait. They'll lose a sub.