How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[KaldeaSahaline]

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

I fundamentally disagree. It's human nature to not want your negative business to be in the spotlight (this thread proves that). If you put people in the spotlight they'll generally do what they're supposed to. If that means picking up the slack, etc.

That's exactly what a parser would do. It wouldn't do it for everybody, but I'm absolutely confident just based on human nature alone it'd have a positive effect on player skill. Nobody wants be the CONSTANT blame, so they'll try and fix it.

As I said before I played WoW before and after parsers were common in the game. The amount of bad players didn't noticeably decrease. But the speed in weeding them out and kicking them did.

Actually - I'll see if I can find it for you, but I very firmly remember WoW Devs citing that their data has shown players have gotten better over the years. They attributed it to addons and community theorycrafting. Which includes parsers.

Not only that, but my anecdotal data directly contradicts yours. I have noticed considerably better players over the years, compared to the old days. Something Miste's anecdotes also corroborate. I've been playing WoW since 2004 and FF14 since ARR.

Quite honestly, before this? I was going to give up and assume 2.5-2.75k is the 'average' Not 3k, so at least that error was avoided.

2.8K is what I did in i316 gear on my First O1S kill. In dungeons I think I average about 3k on a single continuous parse in i363.

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

IMHO - the playerbase in WoW is considerably better than the average playerbase in FF14. In FF14 At least 30% of the time my party members have a player who is near dead weight doing the same DPS I did an expansion ago. In WoW? Maybe 5% of the time, and that's stretching it.

You're right though the biggest difference being there are a lot more parser related harassment and kicks in FF14 because it's hidden and not wide open for everyone to see.

I'll find it is not? Are you sure? I think you made the incorrect assumption that I have not played WoW (I've played all expacs since BC). You also seem to think that your experience is the only point of view that exists and what you experienced must be what everyone else will experience too. A singular brush stroke does not make you see the entire painting.

This is anecdotal, but if you want my opinion on my experiences in WoW....

In my experience WoW's average player skill is higher than FFXIV, but this is just my experience so I can't use such a thing to claim the parser did that or not. No one has the proper data to make a determination on that except Blizzard.

In my experience there was not a higher frequency of parser related drama or kicks.

My experience echoes yours.

[thegreatonemal]

I didnt see anyone saying parser was the answer for this... except you.
No one went about the basic tutorial matters... except you...

Parsers is a tool to improve and get always a better play...


the question there is "what are toxicity" you said harassment (even official parser, harassment have to be ban) other says more kick (maybe yes, but when you lie about performance or are too weak for the content, kick is intended, parser just shows fact)
On the other side people says how parsers can have good uses, mainly in end game content (extrem trial and after) and you, there complain about tutorial...

Someone hasn't been here for most of the discussion.

[thegreatonemal]

You'd have to actually make a point to begin with for me to prove anything, which you still haven't. They only thing you've proven is that you have no idea how parsers aid in developing optimal rotations and drawing terrible comparisons between single player console game systems and endgame in MMO's. So if you'd like to actually make a point that isn't completely nonsensical and isn't product of your own ego and ignorance, I'll wait.

Point has been made you just scanned through it and picked out the one part where I used a personal example called me and ego manic and called me a troll and here we are.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.

No one thinks this for the precise reasons you said. We simply want to push them off with like-minded people. If that Black Mage can't be bothered to learn their rotation properly, let them party with a Warrior who doesn't want to pop cooldowns. Meanwhile, all the players willing to learn and the more experienced players can party together and actually see more successful prog.

The parses make it easier to spot them and then belittle/kick them which is the whole point. This has very little to do with learning tools, hence why I'm toxic for calling out FFlogs being a tool to exclude players, this all has very little to do with players improvement.

Do explain how it is toxic to exclude players who are "bad or lazy." Those were Penthea's exact words. Therefore, you've essentially insinuated we should have to deal with whoever we get no matter what. Even if they're outright lazy and feel entitled to a clear. And no, you cannot lump in belittle into the equation. Harassment can and will still be reportable regardless of whether a parse is publicly available.

[Sigma-Astra]

The parses make it easier to spot them and then belittle/kick them which is the whole point. This has very little to do with learning tools, hence why I'm toxic for calling out FFlogs being a tool to exclude players, this all has very little to do with players improvement.

This is like calling a toaster toxic because it burned your toast even though someone else in your household turned the dial up...

You can't blame the tool, it's an inanimate object, only the user who uses it.

[Tsumdere]

Dude nice. My post that had no swear words and no attacks in it got deleted. I was just responding to someone about how they shouldn't worry about dungeons too much and that they should find someone who can help them with their job.

And yet these back and forth personal attacks are still here. Quality...

[Sneakaboo]

You will always meet people in MMORPG's that are toxic, parser or no parser.
These people do not need a parser to harasses you and ARR an any other online game with out a parser are the proof of that.

- You'll get blamed for others their mistakes
- You'll get kicked/flamed for making a mistake
- You'll get picked on because of your gear
- The run wasn't fast enough
- You should pull more
- You are a try hard and play too good
- You're being too social and too polite

As a healer in any MMORPG I've played I ran into toxic people who blame you while they stood in a big green puddle.
People their poor behavior in Moba's/MMO's/FPS/Forums/Twitter/facebook or just in RL have nothing to do with a parser.
The depraved garbage you see online is everywhere, it's just how people are online.


An ingame parser will help people improve, it will add some fun for some players. There will be some harassing others with it ,but those are the same people who currently kick you or state you are bad because they think you are.
However people need to stop being spastic about it and blame the tool instead of a part of the community.


As some one who plays a healer I love an add on that parses damage/healing and death logs.
Helps me figuring out what went wrong instead of speculating, not a fan of using 3rd party stuff.

[Sneakaboo]

In most countries this is not an offensive term and can be used, I do not imply that people that disagree with me have a disability.
I do imply that some people overreact on these forums when the discussion parsers is being brought up.
While I respect your point of view the term doesn't mean that in most countries, if you consider it to be offensive you might want to reconsider quoting it.
Currently there is a trend going on where every thing is offensive and every one feels victimized.
If a moderator considers it to break the forum code they can remove it and I here by apologize. Perhaps they can censor it in the future.
Anyway I rather stick to the topic than discuss this any further.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

Fflogs is a collection of factual data.
By its very nature it can not be toxic.

The people using that data could be argued as toxic, but other posters have responded to that sentiment already.

If you breathe you're toxic.

Oxygen is actually toxic...
Breathe in too much and it'll kill you.

It's also a participant in corrosion.

[Shurrikhan]

I get that you are not disagreeing, or at least neutral with what I am saying. But you are skirting it as well..it's getting frustrating. I'd make that bold, underlined, and italicized text 64 point size if I could as well, because you clearly missed it.

I. can not. use. fflogs. It will give me an approximation but that is it at best I have no idea if I should be under that number of the i380 geared dark knight by a few hundred, or a few thousand. There is nothing fflogs - a source dedicated to parsing and analyzing current raid content - can give me, for an i360 dark knight that is so fucking tired of being called a bad on a job he is playing for fun.

I can't be any clearer.

Okay. And I should have been more clear. Fair enough.

You're very wrong that FFlogs can provide nothing for you. You're entirely wrong that you cannot use them. There is only one thing they cannot provide, which is an easily accessible bank of parses at precisely i360. Its benchmark, however, can still be approximated via trends from 340 to 370 to 380 (yes, the former tiers still exist on FFlogs), as all their lead parses will still equally account for DRK's only buffs since 4.0. You have the appropriate number available to you. Not conveniently, but you have it. And, as I said, you can come up with an even tighter fit estimate by checking your stat weights before drawing the comparison. That's as close an estimate as anyone else can get; crit chance, jump-sync, and compositional factors will often cause more difference than any 10 item levels to perfect play.

Which is why I have to wonder... Why do you need that number? You just mentioned that a "friggen number" is just a "friggen number" without its context. Well, the context has not changed since the earliest-tier parses accessible. The meta has scarcely if at all changed this expansion. DRK balance and raid buff uptime have not changed since, again, the earliest tier lead parses on FFlogs. Rotation, therefore, and all damage-increasing tricks, have not changed. The context is the percentile. Do what they do. Read the context of their raid buffs against their use of Bloodsplitter. Check their TBN usage against their cotank's skill deployment. The number itself does not matter.

You're right; I dismissed certain portions of your post, almost if I hadn't read them. Because you can do the things you claimed impossible, so long as you -- as you yourself suggested -- pay attention to the context. You say FFlogs can't work for you; I can determine then that you're not using them to their fullest.

I wish it was easier. I wish it didn't damn near require FFlogs. But it's possible to do all the things you claim impossible, all because you're comparing numbers alone--or else asking for precision that is simply not possible save across tens of personal and guiding parses each--not their tricks or rotations or synergies that should be guiding you.

In the future, I'll apply bold.

:: Should it be easier to do this analysis? Yes. Should we need an external site for it? No. But for we now we do need it, but it can technically do all those things you're requesting.