How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Miste]

I didn't say it would have zero impact. Wow. This thread is such an echo chamber. Good god.

I just got here?

I asked you a simple question about something you posted and you are acting like this? I'm confused now.

[Penthea]

I just got here?

I asked you a simple question about something you posted and you are acting like this? I'm confused now.

My apologies. I just had someone else accuse me of stating players should be able to watch everything in combat and spot all mistakes without a parser when I said no such thing and I even said parsers are great tools for this. I feel like they're deliberately misreading what I say.

And then you say I said parsers would have zero impact on skill when I did not. I edited that post and clarified what I meant. I'll repeat the edit here: "As I said before I played WoW before and after parsers were common in the game. The amount of bad players didn't noticeably decrease. But the speed in weeding them out and kicking them did."

[Miste]

And then you say I said parsers would have zero impact on skill when I did not. I edited that post and clarified what I meant.

Okay well let me rephrase my initial question.

You said basically this: 'parsers won't noticeably improve overall player skill' changed the order of words around to make it more clear but this is what you said.

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't.

So I am asking you...how do you know it won't? Facts? Proof? Anything? If not, I am pretty sure it is just an opinion and can't be used to claim what you said in this quote here.

I am not saying that parsers will make a noticeable improvement though cause we don't know that either, but the thing is we won't know unless we try a trial run of it to see how it goes.

I'll repeat the edit here: "As I said before I played WoW before and after parsers were common in the game. The amount of bad players didn't noticeably decrease. But the speed in weeding them out and kicking them did."

This is irrelevant anecdotal data. FFXIV is not WoW. It cannot be used to claim that everything that happens in that game would happen here.

[Penthea]

Okay well let me rephrase my initial question.

You said basically this: 'parsers won't noticeably improve overall player skill' changed the order of words around to make it more clear but this is what you said.

So I am asking you...how do you know it won't? Facts? Proof? Anything? If not, I am pretty sure it is just an opinion and can't be used to claim what you said in this quote here.

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

This is irrelevant anecdotal data. FFXIV is not WoW. It cannot be used to claim that everything that happens in that game would happen here.

Then please enlighten me as to what is so special about FFXIV players that what parsers did in WoW would not be similar to FFXIV?

I'm sure you'll respond with equally anecdotal data.

[Miste]

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

I'll find it is not? Are you sure? I think you made the incorrect assumption that I have not played WoW (I've played all expacs since BC). You also seem to think that your experience is the only point of view that exists and what you experienced must be what everyone else will experience too. A singular brush stroke does not make you see the entire painting.

This is anecdotal, but if you want my opinion on my experiences in WoW....

In my experience WoW's average player skill is higher than FFXIV, but this is just my experience so I can't use such a thing to claim the parser did that or not. No one has the proper data to make a determination on that except Blizzard.

In my experience there was not a higher frequency of parser related drama or kicks.

So our experiences differ, this kinda casts doubt on you using these anecdotes as factual data when someone else can have an opposite experience compared to yours.

Then please enlighten me as to what is so special about FFXIV players that what parsers did in WoW would not be similar to FFXIV?

I'm sure you'll respond with equally anecdotal data.

Why do I have to do that? Burden of proof is on you since you claimed that parsers won't have any noticeable improvement to player skill based on your personal experiences on a totally different game.

You have to prove that your anecdotal WoW experiences can be used as factual data to claim that everything that happens in that game to do with parsing will automatically happen here in FFXIV, since that is what you initially claimed which I challenged you on.

You can't just try to mental gymnastics flip this on me somehow, it is not going to work.

By your logic we might as well claim that 7.0 expac is going to automatically fail since Warlords suffered that fate on WoW. Since it happened in WoW it must be the same here, right? Different situation I know, but it is the same line of reasoning. You can obviously see how flawed using that as fact or proof really is.

[Aerlana]

*snip*

On the wow beta. and again today, unable to says which comunity get the best "average gameplay level".
Fights a clearly different, WoW get PTR where some fight are tried before. Wow also get more steps to train boss after boss during a tier. (where on FF you have to do monster jumps).

But, what makes me laugh when you speak "when parser became common" ok... so when? i use parser on wow from the end of vanilla. Due to vanilla/BC i played mainly with players with parsers. because no duty finder (so less random people)
Kick? yes, it is real, during BC and WOTLK, there was tendency to get more kick in the parties, but... not "because parser" in fact, but "because parser shows people are underperforming" also, in BC i was from those guys complaining about abusiv kick, i saw so much people kicked "because not enough damages" without even asking if their class, spec, the fight they were in would fit this class. some class are really strongher in multitarget fight, and others more in one target...

Also another thing about "more kick" before current WOTLK (3.2 or 3.3) we had no DF for PvE content. it appear during WOTLK, we did discover at this time to play with fully random people, sometime from other servers. with all sillyness we can fidn (from any kind of player...) And, it made a spike of kick.
You think there were no selection during BC or Vanilla when doing HL dongeon or raid? Sure? I did sometime parties for dongeons for the "herodays". I did inspect all people wanting to join the party, checking their enchant and gems to be sure they at least did not random gear. And i can say i was not alone. maybe we were only 10% or 20% to do this in dont know and dont care, but we didnt wait parsing results to consider who accept or deny in the parties...

Even on FF, when people says "ilvl 23786 needed" it is to be nearly sure there will be enough damages. achievment + ilvl this is the same thing than parser. but... sometime, you should took the i360 guy there more than the 370 in your team, because the first one get an excellent mastery of his job, not the i370 one... Parser show this more than ilvl+achievment

And yes, if we get official parser, first we will see more kick. some are intended due to lack of gameplay level. some maybe abusiv.
but people have to learn to read parser, it is not just "hey, i did 1000 dps more than you" ... What many thought and always think

Kicking due to bad stats is thing that come fast = you watch, you see, you kick.
Getting better gameplay due to parser, it is longer. then, consider you need to improve, find the matters, try different things, again and again. Parser does not improve gameplay level and does not kick people, it shows statistics. kick a low DPS guy is a fast thing to do, improve yourself is much longer


But when i read you, i am right to consider you want no kick due to performance? If yes, this is the point that do we cant speak together. we dont have the same mind about the game.