How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Daibunnie]

Well that's my point...if you're in the instance you are in the position to witness the shield lob spam. I have come across plds that do this and I didn't need a parser to tell me about it. I simply saw it and proceeded to eyeroll

I am not saying you can spot all signs of bad performance with observational skills. I did say in a previous post that some mistakes are too subtle to catch or that you maybe don't have the time to glance at what others are doing. I'm just trying to dispel this myth that you need a parser to spot anything that is wrong with how someone is using their class.

I don't consider using the party ui or being familiar with spell animations to be able to spot bad players to be extraordinary. Honestly thought that would be common, especially among healers, but apparently it's not. Personal observational skills as well as class knowledge are just more tools, in addition to parsers, to access a situation. I mean the game gives us all these visual effects to tell us what is happening...why not use them if we can?

Except you're missing the entire point. You can't just suddenly see what animations and effects are being displayed if you're not actually in that instance. You can't see what nonsense rotation someone is using unless you actually want to risk wasting 30 minutes of everyone else's time and letting them join or just look at a previous log of theirs and see all the info there.

Not even sure why you want to bring up "observational skills" when the entire point is to weed out the casual players that don't know what they're doing before they can sabotage anyone's clear/farm party and in some cases, even a practice party. The other players should not have to babysit you on the basics of the game especially at savage content. You don't know how to tank properly? Then you should not be trying to attempt endgame with a tank class. Don't know how to use your entire kit as a healer? Don't be a healer at endgame. Don't know what a stack marker is? You should not even be trying to attempt savage content.

All this nonsense about watching special effects and monitoring them is ridiculous at that point of the game. They should be kicked before any of that even occurs because it ruins the attempt of 7 other players who actually put in the time to learn what to do beforehand.

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

Most pf parties have a minimum ilvl set so no, gear won't be making that big of a difference as opposed to actual performance. A dps dealing only 4k dps as opposed to another dps of the same class and gear dealing 7k, shows that dps is doing something wrong, and people will check your gear to see if you have proper gear and materia or if you're just not doing that well.

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.

Because believe it or not, most people don't want to spend almost an hour of their time to gather people on pf, only to find that someone doesn't have optimal gear, doesn't know their rotation, or doesn't even know the fight and have to abandon because of that very reason.

[Penthea]

Except you're missing the entire point. You can't just suddenly see what animations and effects are being displayed if you're not actually in that instance. You can't see what nonsense rotation someone is using unless you actually want to risk wasting 30 minutes of everyone else's time and letting them join or just look at a previous log of theirs and see all the info there.

It turns out we're having two different conversations then. I'm talking about what a person can see in combat. You're talking about trying to find out a player's skill without getting into combat.

Not even sure why you want to bring up "observational skills" when the entire point is to weed out the casual players that don't know what they're doing before they can sabotage anyone's clear/farm party and in some cases, even a practice party.

So what do you do if you look up a person and there are no logs recorded of their performance? There's always a first time to be logged. Never mind how people can change main class, play a different character, or even take breaks from the game and it may have been several tiers since they last played.

The other players should not have to babysit you on the basics of the game especially at savage content. You don't know how to tank properly? Then you should not be trying to attempt endgame with a tank class. Don't know how to use your entire kit as a healer? Don't be a healer at endgame. Don't know what a stack marker is? You should not even be trying to attempt savage content.

I think you're forgetting that some people don't realise that they are bad, or they don't care. Parsers won't magically make bad players stop trying to do top end content. They just make it easier to spot them.

All this nonsense about watching special effects and monitoring them is ridiculous at that point of the game. They should be kicked before any of that even occurs because it ruins the attempt of 7 other players who actually put in the time to learn what to do beforehand.

Again for various reasons there may not be logs available for you to view for everyone. What do you when this happens? Refuse to take them on because you can't be sure if they're going to force you to babysit?

And I'm sorry if you think being observant in combat is nonsense as I find it to be immensely useful.

[jameseoakes]

I think you're forgetting that some people don't realise that they are bad, or they don't care. Parsers won't magically make bad players stop trying to do top end content. They just make it easier to spot them.

I think that is the main point.

[Ameela]

I think that is the main point.

When you're toxic for not wanting to do double the work/take double the time because someone is too lazy to improve :blobsweat:

[Penthea]

I think that is the main point.

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

[jameseoakes]

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

The parses make it easier to spot them and then belittle/kick them which is the whole point. This has very little to do with learning tools, hence why I'm toxic for calling out FFlogs being a tool to exclude players, this all has very little to do with players improvement.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.

No one thinks this for the precise reasons you said. We simply want to push them off with like-minded people. If that Black Mage can't be bothered to learn their rotation properly, let them party with a Warrior who doesn't want to pop cooldowns. Meanwhile, all the players willing to learn and the more experienced players can party together and actually see more successful prog.

The parses make it easier to spot them and then belittle/kick them which is the whole point. This has very little to do with learning tools, hence why I'm toxic for calling out FFlogs being a tool to exclude players, this all has very little to do with players improvement.

Do explain how it is toxic to exclude players who are "bad or lazy." Those were Penthea's exact words. Therefore, you've essentially insinuated we should have to deal with whoever we get no matter what. Even if they're outright lazy and feel entitled to a clear. And no, you cannot lump in belittle into the equation. Harassment can and will still be reportable regardless of whether a parse is publicly available.

[Sigma-Astra]

The parses make it easier to spot them and then belittle/kick them which is the whole point. This has very little to do with learning tools, hence why I'm toxic for calling out FFlogs being a tool to exclude players, this all has very little to do with players improvement.

This is like calling a toaster toxic because it burned your toast even though someone else in your household turned the dial up...

You can't blame the tool, it's an inanimate object, only the user who uses it.

[Miste]

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't..

Are you omniscient? Because that is the only way you could claim it will have zero impact on player performance.

How do you know it won't help at all?

[Penthea]

Are you omniscient? Because that is the only way you could claim it will have zero impact on player performance.

How do you know it won't help at all?

I didn't say it would have zero impact. Wow. This thread is such an echo chamber. Good god.

As I said before I played WoW before and after parsers were common in the game. The amount of bad players didn't noticeably decrease. But the speed in weeding them out and kicking them did.