How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Selova]

This might be news to you but most people don't google how to play video games they buy this problem is an mmo in general issue. when i play street fighter or ff7 i don't have to google how to do haduken or insert materia I press pause and go down to move list or have a tutorial on that very subject when it becomes relevant to the game that I can revisit anytime I please

This is comedy gold. The fact that you are seriously comparing entry level systems in single player console games to optimizing your rotation and performance so that you are savage raid ready is nothing short of insanity. Well, at least you've finally admitted that parsers are used in theory crafting so i guess that's a start.

[Ameela]

This is comedy gold. The fact that you are seriously comparing entry level systems in single player console games to optimizing your rotation and performance so that you are savage raid ready is nothing short of insanity. Well, at least you've finally admitted that parsers are used in theory crafting so i guess that's a start.

I find it especially funny when you consider the fact that in Street Fighter just knowing how to use the Hadouken or Shoryuken doesn't do you much good, you need to learn when to use them and how to work them into your combos and the specific situations you're in, and the game doesn't tell you how to do that.
It's exactly how it works in XIV too.

[thegreatonemal]

This may be news to you, but most people usually aren't looking up an in game combo list when playing any fighting game on the hardest mode. If they are, they probably won't get that far. If you need to look up a rotation mid fight during any savage content, chances are you'll die or get hit before even exiting the "rotation list." The game has an in game tutorial for each type of role, guildheists to practice, beginner dungeons, and practice parties as well for endgame. So there isn't any excuse when it comes to a scrub needing help on how to play. Not to mention, the parser would help them even more since players outside of the instance can see what they did wrong.

No one is talking about doing it mid fight. This game gives you no real indication that your about to hit a major wall. Up until that moment you have been led to believe that you have been doing fine. so you unlock hit que up in df or join a learning party and you get smashed and you have no idea what your doing wrong. And a player dawns it on you that you've been terrible the entire time you've been playing this game wrong that entire time you thought you were winning.

There is no real indication that this stuff your about to do is the hardest in this game. Most of those games for their hardest modes have a little description something like "you will not survive" "For players looking for the most brutal experience" things like that and that option is before you even start the game not when you've hit max level.

[Daibunnie]

No one is talking about doing it mid fight. This game gives you no real indication that your about to hit a major wall. Up until that moment you have been led to believe that you have been doing fine. so you unlock hit que up in df or join a learning party and you get smashed and you have no idea what your doing wrong. And a player dawns it on you that you've been terrible the entire time you've been playing this game wrong that entire time you thought you were winning.

There is no real indication that this stuff your about to do is the hardest in this game. Most of those games for their hardest modes have a little description something like "you will not survive" "For players looking for the most brutal experience" things like that and that option is before you even start the game not when you've hit max level.

Shinryu isn’t a major wall now? Despite the countless numbers of sprout players dying multiple times during the trial? Even the 4.4 msq has multiple people having to retry with an echo buff.

You’re right that there isn’t any real indication of whether a player is doing decent or not because they end up getting carried by the other 7/23 players. However, if you end up dying mutliple times in the same instance, that should be an indication that maybe you’re not ready for the content past this. Also, the content is called hard/extreme/savage/ultimate for a reason with a high ilvl usually.

[thegreatonemal]

Shinryu isn’t a major wall now? Despite the countless numbers of sprout players dying multiple times during the trial? Even the 4.4 msq has multiple people having to retry with an echo buff.

You’re right that there isn’t any real indication of whether a player is doing decent or not because they end up getting carried by the other 7/23 players. However, if you end up dying mutliple times in the same instance, that should be an indication that maybe you’re not ready for the content past this. Also, the content is called hard/extreme/savage/ultimate for a reason with a high ilvl usually.

True, the devs need to do a better job of indicating and teaching people how to play the game so at least the opener because that sets you up for the rest of any encounter. Players shouldn't have to direct slower/weaker plays to a discord. as for the topic of this thread parsers simply aren't the answer here.

[Aerlana]

as for the topic of this thread parsers simply aren't the answer here.

I didnt see anyone saying parser was the answer for this... except you.
No one went about the basic tutorial matters... except you...

Parsers is a tool to improve and get always a better play...


the question there is "what are toxicity" you said harassment (even official parser, harassment have to be ban) other says more kick (maybe yes, but when you lie about performance or are too weak for the content, kick is intended, parser just shows fact)
On the other side people says how parsers can have good uses, mainly in end game content (extrem trial and after) and you, there complain about tutorial...

[KaldeaSahaline]

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

I fundamentally disagree. It's human nature to not want your negative business to be in the spotlight (this thread proves that). If you put people in the spotlight they'll generally do what they're supposed to. If that means picking up the slack, etc.

That's exactly what a parser would do. It wouldn't do it for everybody, but I'm absolutely confident just based on human nature alone it'd have a positive effect on player skill. Nobody wants be the CONSTANT blame, so they'll try and fix it.

As I said before I played WoW before and after parsers were common in the game. The amount of bad players didn't noticeably decrease. But the speed in weeding them out and kicking them did.

Actually - I'll see if I can find it for you, but I very firmly remember WoW Devs citing that their data has shown players have gotten better over the years. They attributed it to addons and community theorycrafting. Which includes parsers.

Not only that, but my anecdotal data directly contradicts yours. I have noticed considerably better players over the years, compared to the old days. Something Miste's anecdotes also corroborate. I've been playing WoW since 2004 and FF14 since ARR.

Quite honestly, before this? I was going to give up and assume 2.5-2.75k is the 'average' Not 3k, so at least that error was avoided.

2.8K is what I did in i316 gear on my First O1S kill. In dungeons I think I average about 3k on a single continuous parse in i363.

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

IMHO - the playerbase in WoW is considerably better than the average playerbase in FF14. In FF14 At least 30% of the time my party members have a player who is near dead weight doing the same DPS I did an expansion ago. In WoW? Maybe 5% of the time, and that's stretching it.

You're right though the biggest difference being there are a lot more parser related harassment and kicks in FF14 because it's hidden and not wide open for everyone to see.

I'll find it is not? Are you sure? I think you made the incorrect assumption that I have not played WoW (I've played all expacs since BC). You also seem to think that your experience is the only point of view that exists and what you experienced must be what everyone else will experience too. A singular brush stroke does not make you see the entire painting.

This is anecdotal, but if you want my opinion on my experiences in WoW....

In my experience WoW's average player skill is higher than FFXIV, but this is just my experience so I can't use such a thing to claim the parser did that or not. No one has the proper data to make a determination on that except Blizzard.

In my experience there was not a higher frequency of parser related drama or kicks.

My experience echoes yours.

[Penthea]

I'll see if I can find it for you, but I very firmly remember WoW Devs citing that their data has shown players have gotten better over the years. They attributed it to addons and community theorycrafting. Which includes parsers.

I would take that with a grain of salt considering there are add-ons that are designed to help you with your rotation. One called something like Spell Flash lit up the abilities you should be pressing. And no it isn't like FFXIV's combo system. It lit up absolutely everything in the rotation including major cds. Of course it is no replacement for personal class knowledge but the point is those add-ons are a crutch that can make players appear far more skilled than they actually are.

There are also add-ons that have trivialised some boss mechanics. For example Shadow Lord Iskar has a mechanic in which you had to pass around an object called "The Eye of Anzu" which required a great deal of coordination and situational awareness...unless you had the Shadow Lord Iskar Assist add-on which made the fight tremendously easier to do. Again, an add-on making players appear better than they actually are.

[thegreatonemal]

I didnt see anyone saying parser was the answer for this... except you.
No one went about the basic tutorial matters... except you...

Parsers is a tool to improve and get always a better play...


the question there is "what are toxicity" you said harassment (even official parser, harassment have to be ban) other says more kick (maybe yes, but when you lie about performance or are too weak for the content, kick is intended, parser just shows fact)
On the other side people says how parsers can have good uses, mainly in end game content (extrem trial and after) and you, there complain about tutorial...

Someone hasn't been here for most of the discussion.

[thegreatonemal]

You'd have to actually make a point to begin with for me to prove anything, which you still haven't. They only thing you've proven is that you have no idea how parsers aid in developing optimal rotations and drawing terrible comparisons between single player console game systems and endgame in MMO's. So if you'd like to actually make a point that isn't completely nonsensical and isn't product of your own ego and ignorance, I'll wait.

Point has been made you just scanned through it and picked out the one part where I used a personal example called me and ego manic and called me a troll and here we are.